Lets congratulate Rediff for setting up India's first on-line It resource on the Web.

I am sorry there has been a mistake in the title. It should read "Microsoft has already WON the battle for the Internet'.

That's one thing I agree with ----Congratulations Rediff

Dave Cutler: Are you the same Dave Cutler who wrote 'Windows NT?'

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Vijay, they need stand-up comics in Vegas.

Myrvold: I hope you are saying this after using the Netscape Servers. They have a user interface that reminds me of Unix.

Hi folks. This is R.N.Raja and David Gurr, from SCO UK.

Mr Mukhi: What is your reason to come to such an conclusion...

What feautures doe IE3 have that makes it a winner ?Harrumpm!

Hey Mr. Mukhi....how can you categorically state that Microsoft has won the Internet battle? Netscape has a better product by far!

Marc, Bark and Clark: I have one of the largest technology tutorials on the Internet. Most of them are not Microsoft based. To give you an exapmple - Servlets, Tclets, Inferno, Corba they are all there.

Mr Mukhi: What is your reason to come to such an conclusion...

Hello, Mr Mukhi, Can you give me 5 logical reasons in support to your forecast that microsoft will win the battle over netscape?

Take a vote, Mukhi. Take a vote. Netscape anyday. And stop gassing. Let us have some HARD FACTS!

Keyman-India: Six months ago, even Bill Gates wouldn't use IE. Today every review says that they are technologically at the same level. And also what market share?? when both products are free.????

Mr. Mukhi....there are rumours in IT circles that you have ghost writers for your tutorials. Is that true? It is also reported that you pay handsomely for these ghosts to keep their traps shut? (Not handsomely enough...since obviously somebody's opened their trap)

Mr Mukhi: Which window are you chatting on??

:-(

Mr Mukhi - Active X is a marketing ploy to divert attention (unsuccessfully) from Java

Read the latest TIME and FORTUNE. They have cover stories saying the same thing.

We must take issue with Mr.Mukhi's position on three key fronts: i) You cannot conquer that which is not definable (The Internet is not a "thing" to conquer) ii) The advantages of large companies over small competitors do not hold in the Internet space. Small companies can (and do) effect massive change (eg Netscape). iii) The Internet is the embodiment of the co-operative, open systems world. The innovation of the many will always outweigh the innovation of the one.

Mr. Mukhi...keep up the PR for Microsoft....!

Is that why YOU are saying the SAME thing? Plagiarism isn't a virute, yet

Keyman-India: what use of Java when it cannot write to my hard disk. It cannot connect to any machine on the Internet that I want. I prefer Acvtive-X it resides on my hard disk. No downloading each time. It uses C++ and pointers.

Mr. Mukhi: Java CAN connect to any machine to which permissions are granted. Besides, what about security hazards of letting remote programs write to your disks?

Time and Fortune are not the gospel. If you were acquainted with the American media, you would know that Time Life Inc right from Luce's time (Henry Luce 1898-1967 Time's founder in case you don't know)has an unfortunate habit of aligning with its favorite causes. Some may call this warped reporting. We believe the latest stories are no exception.

Raja and David have a point Vijay. Defend us if you will!

Java applets too reside on your hard disk! If you look at the number of Java applets and applications...there are thousands in use. Active-X applications - about 10 ??

Dave Cutler: Sorry it is not PR for Microsoft. Six months ago I said that Microsoft is dead as a company. It is there on my site www.neca.com/~vmis. After using a lot of technologies on which I have written tutorials that the conclusion I have come across. After all it is politically incorrect to say nice things about Microsoft on the Internet. When I was anti-Microsoft, I collected over 300 pages of Bill Gates jokes.

Mr Mukhi: Can you shares some of the jokes with us!!!

Vijay: Microsoft has always won landslide in the software war. If Microsoft was to get a large piece of the Internet pie, it must have found Netscape and Oracle gaping. But , inspite of Bill Gates book "Information Highway" it is clear that MS did not play the game right. It is too late for MS to come back and win. Netscape will dominate the net software and Oracle the Net computer market.

Giving Active X control (sic) to an independent body is so transparent a ploy nobody will buy it !

Raja & David: All that I am saying is that Microsoft today has the best technology on the Internet. They are doing a very bad job at publisicing the fact.According to the Sept. '96 Netcraft survey, Windows NT is the single largest used operating system for servers running on the Internet from a single manufacturer.

Vijay: Microsoft has always won landslide in the software war. If Microsoft was to get a large piece of the Internet pie, it must have found Netscape and Oracle gaping. But , inspite of Bill Gates book "Information Highway" it is clear that MS did not play the game right. It is too late for MS to come back and win. Netscape will dominate the net software and Oracle the Net computer market.

So it is true that you are a turncoat! What decides your flavor of the month? Greenbacks? How can you change you opinion about a company like Microsoft in less than a year. Obviously you do no research. Like someone suggested - do you also have ghost researchers? It makes a lot of sense for you too position your office around a cemetery!

Keyman-India: I also think it is a dumbidea. See what happened to committees --- Corba and VRML 2.0 are standard cases of why you should not have committees.

So

What Microsoft has won is the announcement wars not the browser wars -many announced features in IE3 do not work!

Now you've gone and offended Dave !! You sure make no friends, Mr. Mukhi!

Dave Cutler: In six months Microsoft proved everybody wrong. Today they have some great technology so I say so. Also to date I haven't recieved a single cent from Microsoft.

About my GHOST RESEARCHERS: I work on technology I then dictate into a dictaphone someone transcribes it and then an editor edits the final treanscript. All people associated get their names prominently mentioned at the bottom of the tutorial. I am sure I am not commiting a crime.

It's interesting that Nathan Myrvold thinks we have hit some key nerves. Mr. Mukhi, what's your opinion on the points we raised earlier ?

Does anyone want to contribute to the IE3 'does not work' features list?

Mr. Mukhi, How will Microsoft conquer the Internet

Microsoft is simply resorting to its old techniques of announcing features and SDKs! Nothing really works! What about VBScript? Is there even one independent site that has added VBScript support to its site?

Pravin Kumar: If I cannot have an applet write to my hard disk, then what use are applets to me ???. Today the majority of the applets I see on the web are ticker tape applets which can be written using Tclets faster.

Pravin Kumar: Unfortunately everyone on the Internet pre-announces. Can someone tell me when Java beans would be released??

Keyman-India: Most of Netscape other than Live connect works.

I can contribute: Javascript openWindow function doesn't work! Not to mention all the latest additions to JavaScript!

Dear Mukhi, What do you think is going to happen with the non-PC based internet devices. How do you think then Microsoft will dominate the market.

Ravi Manian: How would Netscape make money to survive when everything is Free???

Mr Mukhi, as BG's alter ego, thanks for the good work!!!

Mr Mukhi, as BG's alter ego, thanks for the good work!!!

Vijay, I just can't understand Why are they waiting for $ 500 dump terminal, where as they can buy a 486 PC today in less than that.

There's little point in debating the relative merits of the technology when there's some more fundamental reasons why Microsoft (or any single, large organisation) cannot be a dominant force on the Internet.

Anil Balan: Everyone is talking of the Network Computer. I have my resrevations. Its too early to decide whether it would succeed or not. It is more a question of economics-pricing. I don't think you can make microprocessors cheaper than Intel does.

But Netscape also does add a lot of very useful features without any hype - In fact you chance upon them deep in the recesses of their documentation and then it's such a joyful feeling! Of course your happiness is shortlived as soon as you discover that Microsoft's IE most probably doesn't support that feature :-(

Sukhvinder Singh Gulati: We agree with you.

William Windows: We are sorry that we are not BG's alter ego. He has great technology - we say so.

Mukhi, don't you think that Microsoft has more hype than hope. Just by having millions of dollars you cannot dominate the net. Also in this industry late comers become LATE _____.

Pravin Kumar: Can you give us a specific example. In my case I have tutorials on Livewire, Live connect plug-ins byut I cannot get NSAPI working. Whereas ISAPI from Microsoft is pleasure to work with.

Mr. Mukhi as I see from the discussion so far, why do you think that so many people are pro-Netscape against hardly any pro-IE chatters. The very fact goes to show how unpopular it is. And what use is technology if the users arent satisfied???

Anil: I don't see the hype. Why don't you see their technologies. Netscape had two year lead in browsers. Today Microsoft is on par. No hype there.

chip: Microsoft has never been a loved company but yet millions use their software. WHY??

What could be the strategy to overcome the 80% marketshare that Netscape already has. And why would millions already using Netscape want to switch over to a new interface viz IE3?

Mr. Mukhi, you seem to be concentrating on purely the technical issues. We take it that your unwillingness to discuss the more fundamental aspects of Microsoft's flaws in the Internet space stems from lack of a sound argument.

Pravin Kuma : Microsoft makes IE and try to provide the Java features as much as possible, because of their commitment to interoperability and to embrace industry standards. We at Microsoft inovate and attempt to enhance those standards. Of course during that time the technology evolution is not at a stand still. May be in near future you will find all those and many more feature. But do look for what IE provides and Netscape does not.

Ok...I do concede that! Anyway, maybe we should end this Microsoft/Netscape bashing session :-)

Mr. Mukhi, what's the status on the Internet scene in India. There are stories about how VSNL dominates and prices are high, reliability is low...! You guys don't even have T1 lines yet. I wonder how Rediff manages to run such a successful and popular web site on a 64 kbps link!

Raja & David: Why don't we be more specific? What are the fundamental flaws that Microsoft has in the Internet space??

Why is the progress of the net more slow in India than the rest of the world?

Pravin Kumar: I have no problems with VSNL's reliability its as good as anywhere in the world and we pay less than $1 an hour.

Mr. Mukhi if you will see I wasnt talking about loving/hating the company but the product. And you have side stepped the point

Mr Mukhi, we stated them at the outset of the chat! For reference: i) You cannot conquer that which is not definable - the Internet is not a "thing" to conquer. ii) The traditional advantages of large companies confer no benefit (and in fact are a liability) in the the Internet space. Small companies can (and do) effect massive change (eg Netscape). iii) The innovation of the many has always outweighed the innovation of the one.

Anil: We get decent speed of 14.4 and it takes me one hour to download a 5MB file. I am happy with it.

What about Net popularity? Has it invaded the home yet? Do you have online transactions? What about security?I hear VSNL passwords float around like leaves - free for anyone to use?

Could you say the same about VSNL's reliability when users flood the net....

Raja & David: To develop software for the Internet you do need deep pockets. I really haven't seen innovative software from garage operations like we had during the early days of the PC.

Netscape has shown a table which clearly describes the various quality differences between Netscape and IE. I was clearly of the opinion that netscape is better since it uses less RAM, less HDD space et al. What about it Mr. Mukhi ?

Where do you think ActiveX heading. Do you think that it can capture the JAVA market. There are rumours that ActiveX has not done so well in the market.

Raja & David: When a technology matures start-ups play a major role. Today you don't find new spreadsheets or databases and similarly its difficult to write a server that can compete against say Apache. I think the Internet (whatever the definition) has matured to a large extent. Even if a start-up launched a better Java it could not survive.

Mr Mukhi, if developing software requires deep pockets, we would not have seen the emergence of small companies like Netscape, nor the emergence of India as a leading software development country. Why should developing software for the Internet require deeper pockets than for any other development area ?

Heck...someone's logged in as Praveen! Now we are going to get confused!

Mr. Mukhi....I am logging in again as CuppaJAVA

Raja & David: For eg. Browser watch has a 117k HTML file listing plug-ins for Windows. Now can a start-up create another plug-in?? Today - difficult. Six moth ago-yes.

Here is the statistics on the Indian Internet scene--10,000 users of which 50% are shell acount; Bombay has 150 access lines with roughly half at 28.8k....catering to 5000 users

Mukhi I am still awaiting answers to my questions.

Praveen : Today the machine I work on has 64 MB RAM and a one GB hard disk. I hadn't paid alot of money for it. Six months ago I never imagined I could afford such hardware. I have brought up in an age where 4k was a lot of memory.

Mr. Mukhi, I'm back! What is your opinion about Internet chats? Do you think what Rediff is doing is a good idea? Technology wise, are you in favor of forms-based chats like these or IRCs?

Mr. Mukhi, it's not the costs of developing the software that prevents new spreadsheets or databases from emerging. It's been the cost of gaining awareness, ensuring distribution and gathering commercial support for your solution. The paradigm shift of the Internet has drastically reduced costs in awareness generation and distribution, levelling the playing field between large and small companies. The traditional rule of thunb that large companies can crush small ones no longer holds.

Microsoft has now started a major support service centers in India which will be a profit centre for the centers. Where have we heard that Indian companies shall pay companies that they can make profit on services for products which are basically inexpensive. Paid service is not a commitment to the customers atleast.

Anil: Active-X will never be a mass market product because of the steep learning curve. However quality and the complexity of the Active-X objects will surpass Java. Java being easier to learn will have more applets but less complexity. I prefer C++ to Java programming anyday. Also because of the fact Java runs theoratically on all Opearting systems obviously it cannot look good.

Chip, who says that IE is not popular. probably you are confining your decision on the basis of this limited discussion. What is important is not how many people participate in the discussion but which is better. See the technology of both the products & decide.

What is technically so superior about Windows NT over Unix. If UI is the only thing, then it means that Unix can have a major market share if they had a more friendly intereface.

Ok..I get the idea. But at i also read that there is a serious flaw in IE 3.0 wherein if a user acceses a page the person can delete several files of the user's Hard disk. This was even proved by writing such a program. With such serious flaws do you think IE can go far. What are you doing about it ?

Raja & David: Today commercialization (did I spell that right?) is not the goal of every programmer. Look at the number of good freeware and shareware programs on the net. If your program is really good it will sell itself. I don't think Netscape's Marc Andreesen had a great marketing set-up. But his product was superlative and look where they are now. I think you are just finding excuses for your lack of creativity.

Mr Mukhi, we don't see what relevance Browser Watch's listing page has to do with the ability of small companies to compete effectively with large companies in the Internet space. What does your Widows refernce have to do with this ?

Anil: Active-X will never be a mass market product because of the steep learning curve. However quality and the complexity of the Active-X objects will surpass Java. Java being easier to learn will have more applets but less complexity. I prefer C++ to Java programming anyday. Also because of the fact Java runs theoratically on all Opearting systems obviously it cannot look good.

CuppaJAVA: I think they are a great technology , a good way of people all over the worl sharing ideas.

Vijay, I don't agree with you. Active X will ceratinly enter the mass market purely because of its popular OLE technology which has become a life of most of desktop users. Agreed Java will have more applets but just wait & watch MS commitment to interoperability will engulf this into their fold.

I agree with Mr. Mukhi on his reasons why Active-X will not pick up a large fan following in the near future. But Mr. Mukhi, isn't what you are saying against Microsoft's technologies. Today developers need environments they can learn in a jiffy and work creatively with them to solve end-user problems.

Raja & David: All that we are trying to say is that it is difficult for a startup to launch an internet product today. They are already too many players and getting noticed on the internet is getting more difficult. How many news sites on the internet carried the news of the beta of Inferno. Only one.

CuppaJAVA: On the contrary, Netscape re-invented marketing for the Internet space. The discovered an awareness and product testing concept that was virtually free, enabling them to get their software into the hands of millions of users worldwide, whilst only being a (financially) small company. Also, we're not sure who's lack of creativity you're mentioning ? The Open Systems world, Netscape, SCO, or just Raja and David ?

Vijay : I don't Agree. ActiveX provides: •Open, cross-platform support on the Macintosh, Windows, and Unix platforms. •Support from a wide range of tools, including Microsoft Visual Basic, Macromedia Shockwave, Adobe Photoshop, Borland Delphi, and Java™-enabled tools. •Built-in integration with key industry and de-facto marketplace standards, including HTML, TCP/IP, Java, and COM.

CuppaJAVA: With Java , everyone thought he could be a programmer, and hence he wrote simple applets. What we are saying is that ActiveX programming is not for the mild hearted. They should use products like Visual Basic. We are not saying that ActiveX will not succeed.

Mr Mukhi, what do u say abt the menace of browser clients growing fatter evry week ( they are both 6mb+ )...

Sukhvinder Singh Gulati: I have not in disagreement with you. But you do agree that you can't learn ActiveX in a day. That is all that I am saying.

Socrates: I do not remember any new version of software being smaller in size than the previous version.

Vijay : We are looking forward to a GUI based (Drag and drop controls) Active X development environment.

ok see you...thanks Mr. VIJAY MUKHI

Mr. Mukhi, for a marketing-savvy company, getting above the noise level on the Internet is not an issue. Bell Labs (creators of Inferno) are a great example of a non-marketing company - after all they managed to keep UNIX a secret for almost 10 years. In any case, the news of Inferno has spread ... to you, to me, and now to all particpants of this chat!

hi

Hello Vijay : NutScrape VS Exploder sounds a nice topic to discuss

Are we going the bloatware way again? I think Microsoft and Netscape both need to think in Internet terms and work on reducing program sizes. I think if a new company comes up with a 2 Mb browser with most features (the 90-10 law would apply) it would sell along with the NC!

Raja & David : We wanted to know what Dennis Ritchie and Brian K were upto. I was disappointed at the news coverage about Inferno.

Vijay; You do agree that people should use VB instead of Active X. Why do you ignore the fact that with GUI and support for Visual Basic will suit the mild hearted also.