'If he settles on something, there are fifty considerations behind it -- the pros and cons, all of it.'
If the first half of this conversation is about where Narendra Modi came from, the second is about where he chose to plant his flag.
Arvind Chaturvedi, who was raised on the ghats of Varanasi himself, turns here to the city he wrote about in his second book, Modi Ka Banaras -- the constituency Modi picked in 2014 over Lucknow, Maharashtra or a seat in Gujarat, and the corridor around the Kashi Vishwanath temple that was rebuilt through the Covid years.
Key points
- 'The most important thing Gen Z can learn from Modi's life is his commitment, his discipline, his method for approaching any task, his dedication to the work at hand, and above all, a very expansive way of thinking.'
- 'He is a deeply emotional man. He has an unusual ability to read people -- almost like a scanner.'
- 'If he feels someone else can explain a subject better than he can, he'll say so quite openly, and he has no hesitation about learning something new, whatever it might be -- even something like AI, which everyone is talking about today.'
Chaturvedi also opens up about the gap, if any, between the private Modi and the one the country sees on television: A man he describes as unusually attentive, quick to read a room, and -- by his account -- startlingly precise in small gestures of thoughtfulness, right down to a Japanese nail-cutter gifted to a friend nearly half a century ago.
This conversation with Prasanna D Zore/Rediff closes with Chaturvedi's reading of what young Indians, in an age of instant results, might take from Modi's decades of unglamorous, incremental work -- from repairing a collapsed dam wall in 1976 to answering ten thousand letters from Pune college students on what to say in a speech.
'When Modi visits Varanasi or the Kashi Vishwanath temple, he seems to lose himself completely in devotion'
Many feel that his bond with Varanasi feels almost spiritual. How did his connection with Varanasi begin, and why do you think he chose Varanasi over any other seat?
He sees even death itself as a source of joy there -- that dying in Kashi brings liberation, in Baba Vishwanath's city. You'll remember that the entire Kashi Vishwanath temple complex was redeveloped during the Covid period, and that transformed the local economy.
I should mention that I grew up in Varanasi myself -- my home is on the banks of the Ganga, so I understand both the city and its pull quite well. The Ganga and Baba Vishwanath, together, are what give the city its power, and Modi worked to bring the two closer together. Now you can travel directly from the Ganga to the Kashi Vishwanath temple.
Earlier, if you landed at the airport coming from Calcutta or Mumbai, it could take four or five hours just to get from the airport into the city; now you can go virtually straight from the airport, by boat, to the temple. That's an enormous change Varanasi has seen since Modi became its MP. And Varanasi, remember, is a city of narrow lanes -- Vadnagar has them too. There's a real similarity between the two.
Could that also be a reason that he may well have been part of why he chose Varanasi?
It could be, yes -- because of the lanes, and because his own home in Vadnagar sits in one.
It probably reminds him of home, of his childhood.
Is there any quieter, more personal side to this -- away from the cameras -- that shows what the city truly means to him?
Yes -- something away from the cameras, that shows what this city genuinely means to him.
When Modi visits Varanasi or the Kashi Vishwanath temple, he seems to lose himself completely in devotion -- as though he has found everything he was looking for.
Since then, the BJP hasn't lost that seat once. That, in itself, is a significant signal. And in Varanasi, whenever something ambitious is undertaken, challenges will naturally follow -- that's nothing new. If you're building a bridge, you need materials, you need engineers.
What I'm saying is that when Modi is at the Kashi Vishwanath temple, he becomes a different person altogether -- that's my honest impression -- and he has said as much himself: That the strength he draws from visiting the temple, he finds nowhere else in the country.
Tell us more about the emotions behind the decisions taken around Varanasi.
As I said, the Kashi Vishwanath temple has weathered many attacks through history -- figures such as Ranjit Singh and Ahilyabai Holkar undertook its restoration at different points, and gilded parts of it in gold.
What I mean is that this gives Modi a kind of energy that pushes him to do his very best. If you ever visit the Kashi Vishwanath temple now, you'll find the courtyard has been expanded to a scale you wouldn't imagine.
After paying your respects inside, you can walk straight to Manikarnika Ghat, where cremations take place -- so you encounter, almost side by side, two entirely different realities of life. In a way, it's also a reminder that none of us should forget that we, too, will eventually have to make that same journey.
'Who would imagine that in 1974, a man living in Gujarat had a friend in Japan sending him gifts?'
Across three books and years of research, how would you describe the gap between the private Modi and the public Modi?
From the time I've spent with Modi, one thing has become clear to me: He is a deeply emotional man. He has an unusual ability to read people -- almost like a scanner.
He looks at you and, within moments, has taken in what you're thinking, what's on your mind; that comes from sheer experience.
It helps him read situations, often in ways you won't even notice. But there's a third point I'd want to make: Whether or not Modi actually meets you, if you have ever been in contact with him, you can assume he has noticed you, and that he is keeping an eye on you.
If you had to choose one story, from any of your three books, that best captures who Narendra Modi is as a person, what would it be?
There's a passage I'd like to read out to you -- give me a second. It says a great deal about how Modi looks at things. Actually, when you've done as much work on something as I have, it becomes difficult to pick just one thing without something else slipping your mind. Let me tell you about an incident instead. This concerns a friend of Modi's from his RSS days, Bhagirath Desai.
A childhood friend, or from the RSS?
From the RSS -- they worked together for around three years during a training course. He told me this story: It's from 1974. Bhagirath was asked by Modi to collect a parcel on his behalf from the post office.
When he went to collect it and brought it back, it was opened in front of him -- it turned out to be a Japanese shaving machine, a hair dryer, a nail-cutter, and a Japanese pen. Modi took the nail-cutter and the pen out of the parcel and gave them straight to Bhagirath Desai.
My point is this -- who would imagine that in 1974, a man living in Gujarat had a friend in Japan sending him gifts? That, in itself, is quite remarkable, and it tells you something about how wide this man's outlook and connections were, even then. That story is genuinely fascinating -- there are many more like it in the Bloomsbury book.
'If he feels someone else can explain a subject better than he can, he'll say so quite openly'
What do you hope young readers take away from these books about resilience, discipline and family?
When any young person reads these books, they'll come to understand that life is never quite as simple as it looks. Whatever you achieve through real struggle tends to last. I've seen this myself -- I even went along recently to watch the Gen Z protests.
What I mean to say is that people's way of looking at things can differ, but I believe everyone's destination ought to be broadly the same -- and our students here have their own discipline and their own struggles.
I think the most important thing Gen Z can learn from Modi's life is his commitment: His discipline, his method for approaching any task, his dedication to the work at hand, and above all, a very expansive way of thinking.
He doesn't take decisions in a day; if he settles on something, there are fifty considerations behind it -- the pros and cons, all of it.
If he feels someone else can explain a subject better than he can, he'll say so quite openly, and he has no hesitation about learning something new, whatever it might be -- even something like AI, which everyone is talking about today.
Let me tell you a short story. There's Fergusson College in Pune, a large institution, and ahead of an address there, Modi's office asked for suggestions from across the country on what he ought to speak about.
You won't believe it -- thousands of letters came in from all over the country, and out of those, ten were shortlisted first, then five. My point is that the way he approaches his work is thorough, right down to the last detail.
And I want to connect this to another incident -- the 1976 Machhu Dam disaster; I remember it well and have written about it.
At the time, Modi was working with the RSS, and he was sent to help with relief work there. He went door to door, along with others, collecting donations -- everyone had been given specific responsibilities -- and he went with an actual, detailed plan for rebuilding the homes and villages that had been destroyed.
One trader asked him to explain exactly what his plan was, and once Modi laid it out in full, the trader asked how old he was. He was told this was 1976, and when the trader heard his age, he was struck by it -- that's the scale of it. The trader agreed to contribute, in two installments, a total of seven lakh rupees.
Seven lakh rupees was a considerable sum for 1976.
A great deal of work was done there. He told me that story, and also gave me a detailed account of Modi's first-ever flight.
Tell us a little more about his school years, his college years, and his time working with the RSS.
There's no doubt that Modi's schooling went through several distinct phases, and his family faced its own set of challenges at each stage. Despite those difficulties, Modi -- from what I gathered -- continued his education further in Ahmedabad. I should mention that Anandiben Patel, who would go on to become a senior BJP leader, was actually his senior at college -- they were both at the same institution, V N College, with Modi a junior to her.
Which class was that in?
Twelfth standard, if I recall correctly -- V N College, in Visnagar, a couple of kilometres from Vadnagar. Anandiben Patel was his senior there, and after that, Modi went on to continue his education in Ahmedabad.
