'If at all human beings require a religion, the future religion will be Hinduism.'
"If India continues as a secular country today, it is only because it is a Hindu majority country. Had it been a Muslim majority country, it would never have been a secular country," archaeologist K K Muhammed -- a member of the archaeological team under Professor B B Lal who excavated the Babri Masjid site and discovered remains of a temple there -- tells Rediff's Shobha Warrier.
"Muslims should be large hearted enough to hand over Gyanvapi and Mathura to the Hindus. And Hindus should stop going after every mosque," adds Mr Muhammed.
Do you feel disappointed that after being in power for more than a decade, the BJP, a party that claims to be the custodians of heritage and talks about a 5,000-year-old culture, did not do much for the preservation of Indian heritage?
Indeed. Not just me, but many people who are associated with archaeology, heritage and culture, are disappointed with the performance of this government and the ministry. They have neglected India's cultural heritage.
The first 5 years were very bad, that is from 2014-2019, from the point of view of the financial power of the Superintendent Archaeologist who had to carry out conservation work.
Under the Congress government, the amount allotted to the Superintendent Archaeologist for the conservation of a monument was Rs 25 lakhs.
This was reduced to Rs 3 lakhs when the BJP came to power in 2014. This was not enough to even to raise a scaffolding, for example in Mahabalipuram, Gingee or Fort St George.
Did the government state the reason for reducing the amount so drastically?
No. The power was kept in Delhi, which brought down the tempo of conservation drastically.
But you could not argue with them. There was no justification to the argument put forward by them and it was not convincing for them also.
There was a lot of hue and cry.
Ultimately, the amount was raised in 2019 after the next election. But we lost 5 precious long years in work.
I had retired by then. I considered myself lucky that I retired in 2012.
For 5 years, most of the important conservation work came to a situation where they just dragged on, for lack of funds.
It was a kind of melancholic existence for archaeology as what the government gave was a pitiable amount.
Though the government increased the amount after 5 years, we couldn't get back the 5 years we had lost.
By then, the conservation work that was going on at various places had got badly affected.
You described the last 11 years as the dark age for Indian archaeology...
Yes, I did. The last 11 years were a dark age for Indian archaeology.
You need visionaries combined with dynamism at the helm of affairs to understand archaeology.
If you had, things would not have gone the way it did, especially when you talk about the glorious civilisation and have slogans like 'Bharat Ka Gaurav Ithihas', etc.
How do you compare earlier governments with the present one as far as preserving India's cultural heritage?
The earlier governments were far better than the present BJP government.
Credit has to be given to the Congress period because they never interfered with the archaeology department.
Many of the people who were dealing with archaeology were experts, and the government had given them a free hand to work. So, they were able to push through decisions and they were experts in the field.
The most important thing for conservation is the availability of finance, If finance is not there, nothing could be done.
I was working at the Bateshwar temple complex in Chambal in MP, and with the help of the dacoits, we were able to do very good work.
We had done conservation work of around 90 temples there during the Congress period.
But during the 11 years of BJP rule, only 10 temples were restored.
Is the political class ignorant, or is it just apathy?
They think they are the last words in culture. Custodians of culture! With no knowledge of how to deal with these issues results in management problems.
During the Vajpayee government also, the committed people could push things through.
You need people with vision and dynamism to understand archaeology which is lacking in today's government.
From the archaeologist's point of view, what is more important? Conservation or excavation?
Conservation and excavation should go hand in hand.
Excavations are important because with rapid urbanisation, we are losing many important sites.
Along with that, conservation of various monuments has to take place.
When we spoke two years ago, you had said that the BJP government was not interested in issues like heritage. Does that outlook continue?
They don't seem to have the kind of commitment they propagate or project.
When you are in the Opposition, you talk about civilisation, culture, etc, but once you are in power, you forget all that.
When we spoke two years ago, and recently also, you said Muslims should give Gyanvapi and Mathura to Hindus. Should we be talking about the construction of new temples when development is the need of the hour?
India is a religious country. India is also a spiritual country. Religion plays a very important role in India. Religion unifies people.
Gyanvapi and Mathura are as important to the Hindu community as Mecca and Medina are for Muslims.
These two places have just two mosques for the Muslims. They are not associated with Prophet Mohammed or any of the spiritual leaders of Islam.
For Hindus, it is the birthplace of Krishna and Lord Shiva, and you cannot change this to another place.
So, Muslims should understand the emotional spirit of the Hindu community.
I often say that it was like giving Pakistan exclusively to the Muslim community during Partition.
If India continues as a secular country today, it is only because it is a Hindu majority country.
Had it been a Muslim majority country, it would never have been a secular country.
I don't stand for the BJP or the RSS. I stand for the millions of Hindus.
Have you been to Gyanvapi?
No. I haven't.
If you stand before the Nandi looking at the mosque, you feel pathetic.
These are some of the emotional issues which you cannot circumvent by saying that you are in the modern age.
Muslims should be large hearted enough to hand over these places to the Hindus.
And Hindus, on their part, should stop going after every mosque.
Will this not open a Pandora's box?
Absolutely not. That's the Communists' narrative to complicate the issue.
In the case of Ayodhya also, Muslims were ready to hand over the place, but the Communists, who were not archaeologists, complicated the issue.
If you don't involve Communist historians in religious issues like this, things will happen smoothly.
Hinduism is a very accommodative religion; you can go to the temple or not go to the temple. It's immaterial who you worship. It's not like any sematic religions.
You don't have such a large-hearted religion.
So, if at all human beings require a religion, the future religion will be Hinduism.
When I say Hinduism, it includes Buddhism, Jainism and even Confucianism or Taoism.
Feature Presentation: Rajesh Alva/Rediff
© 2025