rediff.com: The Rediff Interview/ Pramod Mahajan

'Obviously, Advaniji is the person after Atalji'

The Rediff Interview/Pramod Mahajan
Back in his hometown Mumbai for the prime minister's surgery, Union Parliamentary Affairs Minister Pramod Mahajan has had a busy fortnight. With the PM within the confines of the Breach Candy Hospital, it was the feisty Mahajan who officiated as the official spokesperson for the PM and the party in the city. Juggling his time between the hospital, several press conferences and official inaugurations, the Union Minister spoke at length with Executive Editor Sheela Bhatt enroute to the domestic airport, after inaugurating a mobile bus for computer education at The Oberoi hotel.
On Advani's position
If you ask me whether Advani is or is not number two in the government or in the BJP... well, you don't have to ask, it's so obvious. I don't have to give a certificate to Advaniji that he is the person after Atalji. I don't know why people are talking about such obvious things. It's as obvious as daylight.
What is there to talk about? The whole question is, as long as there is the slot of number one and someone is performing his duty, what is the problem? I have seen the relationship between Advaniji and Atalji . Advaniji was here during the knee surgery, he was in the same room. That is a real relationship.
But are you expecting him to dislodge Vajpayee? I will bet on this, nobody in the RSS is even dreaming of replacing Vajpayee. And I will tell you one more thing, on all these debatable points over which the media finds a gap between the opinions of the RSS and BJP, Advaniji and Atalji hold the same opinion. I am telling you this from my personal experience. I am sure about this. 100 per cent.
So where is the question of the RSS making a distinction between Atalji and Advaniji?
On Vajpayee's popularity
Whether one likes it or not, Atalji's popularity is out of anybody's reach. In contemporary politics there is nobody who is seen as an alternative to him, either within the BJP, within the NDA or even outside. Of course, you can't say Mulayam Singh is an alternative, there has to be a national party to back him.
The popularity of a leader stems from the leadership of a political party. Vajpayee's popularity is due to his liberal image.
Atalji's acceptability has always been beyond that of his party, and it's always so for most parties. Atalji is an orator par excellence, the best that India has produced. He has maintained this standard for 50 years. Most of the people who come to listen to his speech are not BJP voters. But when they hear him, they are mesmerised, which adds to his tally. And today his image has become larger than that of his party. Leaders are always more powerful than their parties. Many liked Rajiv Gandhi for his handsome personality, but how can you make the Congress handsome!
Vajpayee is a great listener. Any alliance partner who goes to him comes back satisfied that the prime minister cared to hear him. He hardly uses harsh language. Only yesterday Jaywantiben Mehta met the PM, she had come two or three times but could not meet him because the doctors did not allow her. She told Atalji, "I came here two-three times, I could not see you, but now I am feeling good." Atalji reacted, " Achcha lag raha hai? Arre bhai hum hospital main pade hai, kya aap ko humen aisi sthiti main milna achcha lag raha hai? Koi aur jagah aap ko nahin mili kya? (Feeling good? I am in hospital and you find this place nice enough to see me? Couldn't you find a better place to see me?) This relaxes a visitor.
When the no-confidence motion was brought against the Morarji Desai government, Atalji remarked, "When there is a motion for no-confidence you have to face it with confidence." This is his unparalleled style. He is able to laugh at himself.
On the BJP's hindutva appeal and loyal voters
It's totally ridiculous to suggest that one paragraph from Bangaru Laxman's speech -- which was literally lifted from Pandit Deendayal Upadhyay's speech given in Kerala some 30 years back -- has affected the BJP voters. In the 1999 Lok Sabha election did the people vote for the Ram Mandir? How can you apply two sets of logic at the same time?
It's ridiculous and absurd to suggest that Bangaru Laxman's appeal to the Muslims was responsible for the setback in the Gujarat local election. I can't say what went wrong in Gujarat. But may I ask a simple question? In the 1999 polls, Ram Mandir was not on our agenda, you are saying that the Gujarat voters were illiterate enough to remain with us? But in one year have they became so literate that they found out one para of Bangaru's speech and things became topsy-turvy?
The next battleground: Uttar Pradesh
We don't deny that Uttar Pradesh is the most important state. It's more important for the BJP since it has given an average of more than 50 seats in the last four elections. In UP our competitors aren't national parties. The Congress is not our competitor. Fortunately, whatever maybe our loss or gain is not likely to be their gain or loss. And the political scenario is such that Mulayam Singh bears animosity towards the Congress since both bank on Muslim votes.
At this point in time I don't want to state that I don't attach any importance to Kalyan Singh. It is fashionable to criticise a leader who leaves the party. He was an important leader. He spent his entire life in the BJP. But look at the history of BJP rebels and their performance after they leave the party, or for that matter the rebels of other parties also. I feel Indian voters are attached to the party and not to the leaders.
I don't think Kalyan Singh is even as powerful as Sharad Pawar in Maharashtra. The party's prospects don't depend upon the leaders. Shankersinh Vaghela is a classic example. His performance was not impressive outside the BJP. So Kalyan Singh is not the real problem.
At the height of the Ram Mandir movement, the BJP could not get more than 230 seats in the UP assembly. And I can't claim that the BJP is today more powerful and more popular than it was in those days. So definitely the UP election is a challenge and the problems are manifold. The BJP voters don't have a casteist mentality.
1990 was a turning point in Ayodhya. From 1990 to 2000, the BJP has remained the number one party, followed sometimes by Mulayam Singh or Mayawati. The Congress was never there and in the coming election too, it will not matter. Assembly elections are sharper than the Lok Sabha ones and divided more on caste lines. UP is one of the very few states which has 20 percent of SC population.
Still, I think Mulayam is not number one as of today. In the past, only the combination of Mulayam and Mayawati brought him to power. The ground realities in UP haven't changed so much to bring him to power without her help. In UP the basic caste combinations play a role over basic performance or non-performance of a government. I don't think Mulayam is surging ahead in UP. Yes, if you really ask me, if the Samajwadi Party and the Bahujan Samaj Party come together it's a deadly combination. No doubt about it, any two out of the three coming together is a deadly combination. But if Mulayam goes alone, his outer limit is a little over 100, how can he reach 212 seats?
The challenge before the BJP is that of leadership. After all you have to project your chief minister, and we have not decided that question. Do you know in 1974, we had projected Vajpayee as a CM?! Gone are those days...
Between 1977 and 1987 UP was dominated by Chaudhary Charan Singh, and from 1987 to 1990 it was V P Singh who mattered. The BJP suddenly became relevant after 1987. In the last decade Kalyan Singh was our known face. Now the BJP will have to decide the leadership issue, because the other two parties' chief ministerial candidates are obvious: Mulayam Singh and Mayawati. After the PM's operation we will have to sit and take a decision.
Second, you are always at a disadvantage when you are in power both in the state and at the Centre. Expectations are high. We will have to strategise two things in the coming election. One is Vajpayee -- his prime ministership and the fact that he is from Uttar Pradesh. I think the BJP should make maximum use of the second factor. The BJP should also make maximum use of Bangaru Laxman. He is our first scheduled caste national president, speaks good Hindi and has an appeal among Muslims. He might not have charisma but we are not making him the CM of UP!
See, in an election, one also plans to stop tactical voting against oneself. Selecting a leader, projecting Vajpayee and using Bangaru as a SC leader... These things, and good adjustments with other parties will help the BJP reach a majority. I am not saying we will cross the majority figure!
The media inadvertently or by design is harping on the point that the BJP has diluted its Hindutva appeal and that our voters in Uttar Pradesh are upset with it. This is absurd and unscientific thinking. In 1992, we brought down the mosque, since that was the popular feeling. I am not talking about its legality, at least for my voter it was an achievement, even if it may not be so for other people. So why did I lose the UP election which followed that event, for I did what my voter wanted!
Let's not distract, I am not going into the merits of the act. As an analyst when I look at it, my question is very simple. After bringing down the structure, somebody may be unhappy, I am not worried about that, but what about the people who were happy with it, whom you are claiming are so sensitive about Bangaru's Nagpur speech and who were my faithful voters, why did they not vote for us in UP in 1992?
I have an explanation. Though existence of the mosque-like structure on the Ram temple was an eyesore for Hindus, as long as it was there the emotions were at the highest level. The eyesore is not there any more and the Ram temple is already there, which leaves no emotive issue. Now the issue is building a magnificent temple. This is not a mass issue anymore, it is a class issue. As a BJP member I have been for the Ram Mandir all along. Since the NDA is not for it, my government has no role in it. But when you analyse it, the emotiveness of the issue was over in 1992.
When you are talking about Bangaru's speech and its impact on the BJP's faithful voters in 2000, your analysis is eight years behind. I personally feel Ram is a human God and more powerful compared to Krishna and Shiva. Please leave Bangaru alone for some time.
Part II: 'When I look back, I am definitely surprised at what I have done'
The Rediff Interviews

Tell us what you think of this interview

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	The Rediff Interview/Pramod Mahajan Back in his hometown Mumbai for the prime minister's surgery, Union Parliamentary Affairs Minister Pramod Mahajan has had a busy fortnight. With the PM within the confines of the Breach Candy Hospital, it was the feisty Mahajan who officiated as the official spokesperson for the PM and the party in the city. Juggling his time between the hospital, several press conferences and official inaugurations, the Union Minister spoke at length with Executive Editor Sheela Bhatt enroute to the domestic airport, after inaugurating a mobile bus for computer education at The Oberoi hotel. On Advani's position If you ask me whether Advani is or is not number two in the government or in the BJP... well, you don't have to ask, it's so obvious. I don't have to give a certificate to Advaniji that he is the person after Atalji. I don't know why people are talking about such obvious things. It's as obvious as daylight. What is there to talk about? The whole question is, as long as there is the slot of number one and someone is performing his duty, what is the problem? I have seen the relationship between Advaniji and Atalji . Advaniji was here during the knee surgery, he was in the same room. That is a real relationship. But are you expecting him to dislodge Vajpayee? I will bet on this, nobody in the RSS is even dreaming of replacing Vajpayee. And I will tell you one more thing, on all these debatable points over which the media finds a gap between the opinions of the RSS and BJP, Advaniji and Atalji hold the same opinion. I am telling you this from my personal experience. I am sure about this. 100 per cent. So where is the question of the RSS making a distinction between Atalji and Advaniji? On Vajpayee's popularity Whether one likes it or not, Atalji's popularity is out of anybody's reach. In contemporary politics there is nobody who is seen as an alternative to him, either within the BJP, within the NDA or even outside. Of course, you can't say Mulayam Singh is an alternative, there has to be a national party to back him. The popularity of a leader stems from the leadership of a political party. Vajpayee's popularity is due to his liberal image. Atalji's acceptability has always been beyond that of his party, and it's always so for most parties. Atalji is an orator par excellence, the best that India has produced. He has maintained this standard for 50 years. Most of the people who come to listen to his speech are not BJP voters. But when they hear him, they are mesmerised, which adds to his tally. And today his image has become larger than that of his party. Leaders are always more powerful than their parties. Many liked Rajiv Gandhi for his handsome personality, but how can you make the Congress handsome! Vajpayee is a great listener. Any alliance partner who goes to him comes back satisfied that the prime minister cared to hear him. He hardly uses harsh language. Only yesterday Jaywantiben Mehta met the PM, she had come two or three times but could not meet him because the doctors did not allow her. She told Atalji, "I came here two-three times, I could not see you, but now I am feeling good." Atalji reacted, " Achcha lag raha hai? Arre bhai hum hospital main pade hai, kya aap ko humen aisi sthiti main milna achcha lag raha hai? Koi aur jagah aap ko nahin mili kya? (Feeling good? I am in hospital and you find this place nice enough to see me? Couldn't you find a better place to see me?) This relaxes a visitor. When the no-confidence motion was brought against the Morarji Desai government, Atalji remarked, "When there is a motion for no-confidence you have to face it with confidence." This is his unparalleled style. He is able to laugh at himself. On the BJP's hindutva appeal and loyal voters It's totally ridiculous to suggest that one paragraph from Bangaru Laxman's speech -- which was literally lifted from Pandit Deendayal Upadhyay's speech given in Kerala some 30 years back -- has affected the BJP voters. In the 1999 Lok Sabha election did the people vote for the Ram Mandir? How can you apply two sets of logic at the same time? It's ridiculous and absurd to suggest that Bangaru Laxman's appeal to the Muslims was responsible for the setback in the Gujarat local election. I can't say what went wrong in Gujarat. But may I ask a simple question? In the 1999 polls, Ram Mandir was not on our agenda, you are saying that the Gujarat voters were illiterate enough to remain with us? But in one year have they became so literate that they found out one para of Bangaru's speech and things became topsy-turvy? The next battleground: Uttar Pradesh We don't deny that Uttar Pradesh is the most important state. It's more important for the BJP since it has given an average of more than 50 seats in the last four elections. In UP our competitors aren't national parties. The Congress is not our competitor. Fortunately, whatever maybe our loss or gain is not likely to be their gain or loss. And the political scenario is such that Mulayam Singh bears animosity towards the Congress since both bank on Muslim votes. At this point in time I don't want to state that I don't attach any importance to Kalyan Singh. It is fashionable to criticise a leader who leaves the party. He was an important leader. He spent his entire life in the BJP. But look at the history of BJP rebels and their performance after they leave the party, or for that matter the rebels of other parties also. I feel Indian voters are attached to the party and not to the leaders. I don't think Kalyan Singh is even as powerful as Sharad Pawar in Maharashtra. The party's prospects don't depend upon the leaders. Shankersinh Vaghela is a classic example. His performance was not impressive outside the BJP. So Kalyan Singh is not the real problem. At the height of the Ram Mandir movement, the BJP could not get more than 230 seats in the UP assembly. And I can't claim that the BJP is today more powerful and more popular than it was in those days. So definitely the UP election is a challenge and the problems are manifold. The BJP voters don't have a casteist mentality. 1990 was a turning point in Ayodhya. From 1990 to 2000, the BJP has remained the number one party, followed sometimes by Mulayam Singh or Mayawati. The Congress was never there and in the coming election too, it will not matter. Assembly elections are sharper than the Lok Sabha ones and divided more on caste lines. UP is one of the very few states which has 20 percent of SC population. Still, I think Mulayam is not number one as of today. In the past, only the combination of Mulayam and Mayawati brought him to power. The ground realities in UP haven't changed so much to bring him to power without her help. In UP the basic caste combinations play a role over basic performance or non-performance of a government. I don't think Mulayam is surging ahead in UP. Yes, if you really ask me, if the Samajwadi Party and the Bahujan Samaj Party come together it's a deadly combination. No doubt about it, any two out of the three coming together is a deadly combination. But if Mulayam goes alone, his outer limit is a little over 100, how can he reach 212 seats? The challenge before the BJP is that of leadership. After all you have to project your chief minister, and we have not decided that question. Do you know in 1974, we had projected Vajpayee as a CM?! Gone are those days... Between 1977 and 1987 UP was dominated by Chaudhary Charan Singh, and from 1987 to 1990 it was V P Singh who mattered. The BJP suddenly became relevant after 1987. In the last decade Kalyan Singh was our known face. Now the BJP will have to decide the leadership issue, because the other two parties' chief ministerial candidates are obvious: Mulayam Singh and Mayawati. After the PM's operation we will have to sit and take a decision. Second, you are always at a disadvantage when you are in power both in the state and at the Centre. Expectations are high. We will have to strategise two things in the coming election. One is Vajpayee -- his prime ministership and the fact that he is from Uttar Pradesh. I think the BJP should make maximum use of the second factor. The BJP should also make maximum use of Bangaru Laxman. He is our first scheduled caste national president, speaks good Hindi and has an appeal among Muslims. He might not have charisma but we are not making him the CM of UP! See, in an election, one also plans to stop tactical voting against oneself. Selecting a leader, projecting Vajpayee and using Bangaru as a SC leader... These things, and good adjustments with other parties will help the BJP reach a majority. I am not saying we will cross the majority figure! The media inadvertently or by design is harping on the point that the BJP has diluted its Hindutva appeal and that our voters in Uttar Pradesh are upset with it. This is absurd and unscientific thinking. In 1992, we brought down the mosque, since that was the popular feeling. I am not talking about its legality, at least for my voter it was an achievement, even if it may not be so for other people. So why did I lose the UP election which followed that event, for I did what my voter wanted! Let's not distract, I am not going into the merits of the act. As an analyst when I look at it, my question is very simple. After bringing down the structure, somebody may be unhappy, I am not worried about that, but what about the people who were happy with it, whom you are claiming are so sensitive about Bangaru's Nagpur speech and who were my faithful voters, why did they not vote for us in UP in 1992? I have an explanation. Though existence of the mosque-like structure on the Ram temple was an eyesore for Hindus, as long as it was there the emotions were at the highest level. The eyesore is not there any more and the Ram temple is already there, which leaves no emotive issue. Now the issue is building a magnificent temple. This is not a mass issue anymore, it is a class issue. As a BJP member I have been for the Ram Mandir all along. Since the NDA is not for it, my government has no role in it. But when you analyse it, the emotiveness of the issue was over in 1992. When you are talking about Bangaru's speech and its impact on the BJP's faithful voters in 2000, your analysis is eight years behind. I personally feel Ram is a human God and more powerful compared to Krishna and Shiva. Please leave Bangaru alone for some time. Part II: 'When I look back, I am definitely surprised at what I have done' The Rediff Interviews Tell us what you think of this interview
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