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The Rediff Interview/ P T Manoharan

'For a university, money is not the most important thing but good professors'

Expectations were high when Professor P T Manoharan took over as the Madras University vice chancellor. He would, many thought, help the institution regain its glory. But that was not to be. The professor, who used to teach at the Indian Institute of Technology, resigned in frustration recently. The reason: the 'caste politics' dominating the university. Now he plans to return to what he does best -- research. He spoke to Shobha Warrier about the state of university education in India. Excerpts:

You said that you joined with lots of vision and dreams for the Madras University. What were they?

The higher education system is very noble. Most people do not attach much importance to it. I genuinely feel that it is possible to develop human resources in our country. We are going through the processes called liberalisation, globalisation and privatisation. These three will not work unless we have high quality man power at the higher level. Only a university can provide that.

This university had many problems. More than half the positions were vacant, the buildings of this 142-year-old university were crumbling, and the infrastructure was very poor. I wanted to solve all these problems.

By infrastructure, you mean staff, library..?

Yes, staff, equipment, library etc. I will give you an example: the university did not have Internet facility even though we have reached late 20th century. Personally I have had the Internet facility in my lab for the last 20 years. Likewise, my dream was to provide the best of infrastructure to all of them. There are some departments, which have only one person, like the communication department. On the other hand, they have other departments with five extra people who are not good at all. I dreamt about creating, during my time, a very good institution of high calibre.

Recently Prof P V Indiresan wrote in The Hindu that when you took over, everybody prophesised that you would try to introduce the practices of IIT but would not succeed. Did you have any such doubts?

No, I didn't have any such doubts. The work culture or learning culture need not necessarily be restricted to the IIT alone. It can be put into other places too. Where was the IIT when the University of Madras was at its peak?

And this is the university which produced giants like Dr C V Raman, Dr S Radhakrishnan etc.

Yes, such great men were here.

Why has it deteriorated to this level? Is it because the system is outmoded, the syllabi outdated? Or is it because of politicisation?

There are many factors (responsible). One reason is that some of the good men have departed from this place and no good men have been put in their places. Number two, nobody cared for the production of knowledge. They did not think in terms of scholarships. The university has become a place to find jobs and nothing more. I wanted to recreate that a university is a place of culture, a place for scholarships, a place for the creation of knowledge etc, etc.

Were you optimistic?

I was quite optimistic.

Unlike many others.

They were quite right. In the IIT, you have a lot of flexibility, but here you don't have that because you are bound by the chains of rules and regulations, which are totally outdated. They should have been changed long back. The most undesirable thing is, the unions have a lot of power. When they want scholarships, they create them. In the normal course, when a lecturer wants to become a professor, it is achieved based on the scholarship that they produce. But when you take people of mediocre calibre in the faculty, they do not get scholarships. So, they need a force to propel them to higher positions. And such a force is the union here.

Should politics enter academic institutions? The politicians of Kerala, including the chief minister, say that children should be exposed to politics even at the school level. But parents and other academicians complain that the presence of politics has ruined many educational institutions. What is your opinion?

I have strong views about it. Politics should have no place in the university. I am not against anyone belonging to any political party, as that's their constitutional right. I cannot say just because you are a professor, you cannot join politics. I have no objection as long as you are not using the power of political parties for your personal benefits in the university. I also do not want politicians in any of the policy-making bodies of the university. Students too should not use their political ideas while they are inside the campus.

You talked about policy-making bodies. In the IITs, there are no elected members, politicians, or administrators in the policy-making bodies. Is that the reason why they function well? Or, is it because they get the cream of the society?

It is a combination of all these reasons. Yes, you get the cream of students and you also get the cream of faculty. Other universities do not get that. For example, in the University of Madras, there are a substantial number of very good people but they become ineffective because of other factors. There is no flexibility for them. Still I say, there are quite a few faculty members who have done outstanding work irrespective of politics. The reason is, they were interested only in academics. And I feel they should be spared from political interference of any kind. On the other hand, the professors are everything at the IIT. I was with two different IITs for two decades. So, I know how they function.

You said people clamour for lowering the standards of universities. Who wants that -- the politicians or academicians?

Why do we have to unnecessarily refer to the politicians? They have nothing to do with the lowering of standards. We academicians go to politicians to get instructions. You may be doing it at your personal level. That is perfectly all right. What is not all right is that you are not doing your duty as a teacher, as a professor and as a creator of knowledge.

You talked about caste playing a major role in the universities. Is that not a reflection on the society, where the most important factor is caste these days?

You can write volumes on it. But I don't want to see this face of the society in the university. You can belong to any caste, any religion. Why do you want to bring that factor into the university where your only work is to be a scholar? I want everybody to be a scholar. You must be a researcher, you must be a teacher, now I add one more dimension. You must be an industrial consultant.

When I say industry, what I mean is, you can be a consultant to someone, you can be a consultant to the government, you can be a consultant to the University Grants Commission, you can be a consultant to research organisations, you can be a consultant to business houses... Some people call it community interactions. In other words, we want to make ourselves useful to the society using what we learn from the university.

Instead of wasting time on caste and politics, you try to produce a scholarship for you because you are a thinker. And you create new ideas. This is personal development. The second development is, you create human resources. That is, you teach the students and create a new group of researchers because research and teaching should go together. And the third thing I expect from the teachers is, interact with the society by doing something for the business or industry so that you can bring some money for yourself and the university. This is not the IIT model alone. This is the US and the western countries' model.

Do you think we can implement these ideas?

Yes, I have done it. People are enjoying the facility.

So, it is not as rigid as it is portrayed out to be.

It is very rigid. Our administration is not tuned for that. So I had to educate them first.

Of late, the standard of our colleges and universities has come down a lot. Is it because we still follow outdated syllabi?

There are several reasons. One is, the input in higher education in terms of money is very poor. In fact, the input in higher education should be at least 200 per cent more than what it is right now. If you pump in more money, you can produce newer and better infrastructure. Two, you have to modernise the universities. Three, we have to modernise our curricula. But in order to modernise the curricula and make it applicable, we need good faculty members. That is the difficulty. The teachers at the university level should be good in their subjects. In other words, the selection process for faculty members is very poor. And promotion policies are terrible.

We do not take care of the better teachers too. We are not utilising their capacity. The better ones, out of sheer frustration, go out of the country. Do you think all those who have gone out of the country are outstanding? I would not say so. There are average people among them also. But all of them do well there. Why? A certain condition there makes the environment very friendly for doing constructive work. In our country, the environment is not friendly at all. So, there is no dedication and devotion among the teachers. I myself can see it.

You said the environment is not friendly here in India. Do you mean the universities do not allow academicians to pursue higher studies, improve their knowledge etc?

Absolutely. The library facilities are poor. Facilities like the Internet and the intranet are not there. There are no good sitting places for the teachers. If you want to be a good professor, you need a comfortable environment. Most of the universities are in very drab conditions. They don't even look beautiful. This is not the only reason.

Some of the faculty being mediocre, they don't like good people to prosper. Mediocrity builds mediocrity. So, I will say we have not been right in the selection of the faculty members. It has been happening for the last few decades. That is the main reason for the university structure crumbling down.

You taught in the IIT for two decades. How do you compare the IITs and other universities? How much more dedicated are the faculty and the students of the IIT?

It is extremely difficult to quantify. Even in places like the Madras University, there are very good people. In the IIT there is probably more number of such people than here.

What drives the faculty of the IIT to give that extra bit of dedication?

First, in the selection itself they make sure that they get the right people. And then they are given the flexibility to run a course. For example, I can conduct an examination the way I like it. But my colleague may do it in a different fashion. I started it in the university too. You conduct the examination on such and such date, but how you conduct depends on your imagination. If the teacher is good, he will make it a fantastic success. If the teacher is bad, it will be a disaster. So, the teacher is the centre for all activities. For the development of the university, money is not the most important thing but good professors. You will finish the department by employing the wrong people. So, they should give more stress to the appointment of the faculty.

'Even our IITs and IIMs are only comparable with the second grade institutions of the US'

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