The Vishwa Bandhu Gupta Chat
Brave men don't cry, they fight it out
Additional Commissioner of Income Tax Vishwa Bandhu Gupta, who was suspended on June 20 on a charge of flouting discipline, was in a combative mood when he appeared on The Rediff Chat. Far from being cowed down, he said he was being victimised for having exposed the dubious money deals of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad several years ago. Gupta said he would challenge his suspension before the Central Administrative Tribunal and declared that he would also expose the misuse of the Voluntary Disclosure of Income Scheme in court.
Karuna (Wed Jun 21 19100 5:30 IST)
Mr Gupta is living up to the reputation of the arrogant civil servants by making people wait for him
Vishwa Bandhu Gupta (Wed Jun 21 19100 5:47 IST)
Karun: I apologise. I was caught in a traffic jam.
Vishwa Bandhu Gupta (Wed Jun 21 19100 5:34 IST)
Hello everyone! I am here to take your questions on match-fixing and the betting industry in India.
Harish (Wed Jun 21 19100 5:11 IST)
Hello Mr Gupta, did you really disclose that Azhar gave Rs 16-17 crore under the VDIS scheme?
Vishwa Bandhu Gupta (Wed Jun 21 19100 5:36 IST)
Harish: Well, I did say that an Indian captain had made a disclosure of Rs 16 crore under VDIS, but I could not have named him because of government rules.
Ghosh (Wed Jun 21 19100 5:11 IST)
Sir, how do you react to your suspension? What action are you planning to take?
Vishwa Bandhu Gupta (Wed Jun 21 19100 5:37 IST)
Ghosh: Two actions basically. One, I applied to move the Central Administrative Tribunal for having suspended me without giving any reasons except making an observation that I have indulged in indiscipline. These are not sufficient grounds to keep an officer off duty.
Vishwa Bandhu Gupta (Wed Jun 21 19100 5:39 IST)
Ghosh: The second is that I plan to file a writ in the Delhi high court explaining the extent of criminal disclosures made under the VDIS scheme with the complicity of top finance ministry officials and also how deep the infiltration of the criminal mafia is in the government set-up. I plan to request the court to hear the writ in camera.
azhar (Wed Jun 21 19100 5:13 IST)
Mr Gupta, you have often stated in the IIC bar that Azhar used the VDIS. So why are you going back on it now?
Vishwa Bandhu Gupta (Wed Jun 21 19100 5:39 IST)
Azhar: I don't remember having taken anybody's name.
Mahant (Wed Jun 21 19100 5:13 IST)
Who are the people who have declared money under VDIS and given fake currency? How is the finance ministry involved?
Vishwa Bandhu Gupta (Wed Jun 21 19100 5:42 IST)
Mahant: The finance ministry issued an illegal notification that no enquiry shall be conducted into the antecedents of the declarant as well as what he was declaring provided such declaration was on Rs 2 stamp paper. This was grossly abused by thousands of people from all backgrounds. Regarding fake currency, this was the first year when ISI introduced fake Rs 500 notes in India and some of this landed up in the government treasury as nobody suspected these notes to fake at that time.
taxman (Wed Jun 21 19100 5:24 IST)
Good evening, Mr Gupta. Do you think your suspension had more to do with your expose of the VHP 10 years ago and not so much with the VDIS and Azhar? That the Azhar bit just gave them the excuse they were looking for?
Vishwa Bandhu Gupta (Wed Jun 21 19100 5:43 IST)
Taxman: I think to a great extent it is the bureaucracy in India which also likes to please its political masters. Some of the BJP leaders have also not forgiven me for doing my lawful duty ten years ago.
Gopal (Wed Jun 21 19100 5:25 IST)
The VHP repeatedly denies receiving foreign funds, especially for its dubious Ayodhya cause. Isn't that a lie? What did you find when you investigated the VHP?
Vishwa Bandhu Gupta (Wed Jun 21 19100 5:46 IST)
Gopal: I found of number of misdemeanours. Many BJP leaders were using funds for personal purposes collected in the name of the trust. Also, lots of diaries listing havala money having been transferred from abroad to VHP were recovered [though] the RBI had banned donations from abroad for the VHP. Also, the VHP never had any accounts and a large amount of gold jewellery and silver bricks collected from women in villages was missing from their possession.
ARUNDHATI DAS (Wed Jun 21 19100 5:34 IST)
How do u know that Azhar declared 16 crore? What's ur proof?
Vishwa Bandhu Gupta (Wed Jun 21 19100 5:49 IST)
Arundhati: The proof of all declarations made by cricketers under VDIS is with the finance ministry. Cricketers have no business to make declarations under VDIS as they either receive cheque payments from corporate sponsors or from the BCCI or from the board of some other country. I would like to inform you that several houses of cricketers have been raided in Bombay yesterday.
sai srinivas (Wed Jun 21 19100 5:38 IST)
Don't u think the Govt has taken u into confidence when giving this information about the persons paying through VDIS. And now u r telling it out wide open. What is ur comment on it?
Vishwa Bandhu Gupta (Wed Jun 21 19100 5:52 IST)
saisrinivas: I am trying to persuade the finance minister to make at least search declarations public where clearly the ill-gotten wealth is evident in the declaration. Instead of CBI asking [Ajit] Wadekar or some other cricketer whether Kapil [Dev] did say something to Manoj [Prabhakar], a better way of going about finding misdemeanours of cricketers would be to make the records of their ill-gotten wealth public. And I can assure you this that there is more than one fish involved and the ill-gotten wealth runs in several crores.
Farid (Wed Jun 21 19100 5:41 IST)
Who are the cricketers who have declared enormous amounts of money under VDIS? Are Kapil, Sachin [Tendulkar] and [Sunil] Gavaskar among them?
Vishwa Bandhu Gupta (Wed Jun 21 19100 5:53 IST)
Dear Farid, I wish I could share this information with you. If you provide me a good job after being dismissed from this job I will go public on this.
Karuna (Wed Jun 21 19100 5:42 IST)
Dear sir, don't you think it is the duty of politicians to discuss the merits of policy and ur duty is to implement whatever legislation they make?
Vishwa Bandhu Gupta (Wed Jun 21 19100 5:56 IST)
Karuna: I completely agree with you. It is the abuse by some of the senior officials of the finance ministry of this policy which resulted in the gross abuse where tens of thousands of crores of wealth was accepted at an income-tax rate of 5 to 7 per cent. This was cheating done in connivance with senior ministry officials for which honest taxpayers are being made to pay.
Princess (Wed Jun 21 19100 5:45 IST)
What does 'doing my lawful duty ten years ago' mean?
Vishwa Bandhu Gupta (Wed Jun 21 19100 5:58 IST)
Princess: The lawful duty is asking for all money which was received by top functionaries of the VHP which was able to fan communal riots with that money. This is against the income-tax laws. The tragedy is that even over the last 10 years, they don't have accounts and are enjoying exemption from the department of income tax.
Farid (Wed Jun 21 19100 5:47 IST)
You stated that instead of the current 300 billion the finance ministry can recover 600 billion, but it's not coming in... Why/how?
Vishwa Bandhu Gupta (Wed Jun 21 19100 6:0 IST)
Farid: I am sorry I am not able to follow your question.
Gopal (Wed Jun 21 19100 5:49 IST)
But Mr Gupta, why are you making a noise about the VDIS now, after 3 years and more? Why didn't you object when P Chidambaram launched the scheme?
Vishwa Bandhu Gupta (Wed Jun 21 19100 6:2 IST)
Gopal: Let me put it on record for you. I was interviewed by Doordarshan when VDIS was being implemented and it [the interview] was anchored by Mr Vinod Dua. I categorically stated in that interview that this scheme was being abused at that time and those who are part of the abuse of this scheme are doing so at their own risk. There is a correspondence between me and the chairman, CBDT [Central Board of Direct Taxes], which I intend to put forward before the court.
Dhivyesh Sharma (Wed Jun 21 19100 5:55 IST)
Whose houses were raided? Mongia and Gavaskar?
Vishwa Bandhu Gupta (Wed Jun 21 19100 6:3 IST)
Diveshya Sharma: I am afraid I can't take names. At least one former Indian captain's house was raided yesterday.
Zealot (Wed Jun 21 19100 5:52 IST)
Why did you write directly to the FM and not your immediate boss?
Vishwa Bandhu Gupta (Wed Jun 21 19100 6:4 IST)
Zealot: All letters to the finance minister are routed through the immediate bosses and they are entitled to give their comments on that letter. Under government rules, if I write a letter to the finance minister he is paid to read that letter. I did not say that I wrote any letter directly to the finance minister.
muni (Wed Jun 21 19100 5:55 IST)
But Mr Gupta, whether that commitment from the government to keep the declarations secret was right or not, how can you go back on it now? Never again will anyone, crooked or straight, trust the government.
Vishwa Bandhu Gupta (Wed Jun 21 19100 6:6 IST)
Muni: Well, I quite share your concern. I am asking the finance minister to make a distinction between black money and criminal money. Let me clarify that VDIS prohibits disclosure of criminal money and that is where my entire case rests.
Indra (Wed Jun 21 19100 5:58 IST)
Has there been any raid on cricketers' houses? If not, what were you doing for so long?
Vishwa Bandhu Gupta (Wed Jun 21 19100 6:10 IST)
Indra: The raids are conducted with the warrant issued by an officer of commissioner rank under the Income Tax Act. Unfortunately, I am still not a commissioner. In fact, I stated in one of the TV interviews that when I had caught a bookie with Rs 1 crore in cash in central Delhi in 1994 and asked my commissioner to issue a warrant, he refused to do so. In fact, this programme was seen by one of the judges of Punjab and Haryana, Hon Justice M S Gill, and he took suo moto recognition of my statement and ordered the FM to explain why they were sleeping on this matter over 10 years and what action had been taken in the last 10 years be put up before the court. It is only after this order of the Punjab and Haryana high court that the income tax and enforcement departments have swung into action over the last fortnight.
Zealot (Wed Jun 21 19100 6:9 IST)
Well Mr Gupta: We believe the Sangh Parivar and the VHP are solidly behind your 'cleanse cricket' campaign. Is this true? If yes, then is Azhar justified in making that minority remark because the RSS and the VHP specialise in Muslim-bashing, don't they?
Vishwa Bandhu Gupta (Wed Jun 21 19100 6:11 IST)
Zealot: What I have read is that the VHP doesn't believe in cricket. They have demanded that the game be banned. So I am unable to answer your question.
Rohan (Wed Jun 21 19100 6:2 IST)
Ok, we understand your arguments against the VDIS. But then how else would you ever get at the crores and crores of unaccounted money that's floating around in the system? Do you have any ideas? Or are you just another of those who criticize?
Vishwa Bandhu Gupta (Wed Jun 21 19100 6:13 IST)
Rohan: I have put my head on the chopper. I have been responsible for giving a certain amount of direction to the investigation in the filthy cricket scam by explaining to various agencies my understanding of the betting and match-fixing industry. Pray to god that I become commissioner, I shall deliver you results in three months!
ARUNDHATI DAS (Wed Jun 21 19100 6:3 IST)
Where is the helicopter of Romesh Sharma? Is it still attached?
Vishwa Bandhu Gupta (Wed Jun 21 19100 6:16 IST)
Arundhati Das: No, Romesh Sharma does not have the helicopter now. The helicopter has been returned to its owner from whom Sharma had extorted it. He had extorted dozens of properties in Delhi and Bombay through hooligans and his connections in the underworld. The Delhi police estimated his wealth at Rs 500 crore. He was also a declarant in the VDIS scheme and the ministry had accepted his declaration of wealth at just Rs 51 lakh.
Zealot (Wed Jun 21 19100 6:5 IST)
I agree with Saisrinivas and Nidhi. Come on, Mr GUPTA, if you think the system is rotten, come out of it, join politics, and go hammer and tongs at it. But by remaining within the service, you cannot have the cake and eat it too.
Vishwa Bandhu Gupta (Wed Jun 21 19100 6:18 IST)
Zealot: I quite agree with you. But one way of looking at it is that those who were doing wrong in the finance ministry would be happy with my quitting the service. I am giving them hell right now, and I will keep giving them more hell in weeks to come, and I think this is one way of doing service to society.
ARUNDHATI DAS (Wed Jun 21 19100 6:5 IST)
What is silver laundering? How was it washed in the VDIS?
Vishwa Bandhu Gupta (Wed Jun 21 19100 6:22 IST)
Arundhati: Under the IT Act, if an income is not detected in 10 years, it becomes tax-free. Now what happened was people made fake declaration that they had silver with them more than ten years ago and that too with huge amounts. When they were asked to show the silver and the year in which they had acquired it they procured an order from the revenue secretary that no such questions will be asked if a declarant says anything on a Rs 2 stamp paper. Since these were the directions of the highest officials in writing, no tax was applicable on the silver disclosed and wealth tax for 10 years amounted to just 4 or 5 per cent. This is what was silver laundering in the VDIS running into several hundred quintals in Delhi, Bombay, Calcutta, Madras. In fact, in Calcutta there was a queue of silver declarants.
agni (Wed Jun 21 19100 6:8 IST)
I guess you will be a better politician that a civil servant.
Vishwa Bandhu Gupta (Wed Jun 21 19100 6:23 IST)
agni: Thank you. I am willing to join politics but I will find myself all alone there.
agni (Wed Jun 21 19100 6:9 IST)
Mr Gupta: Simple question, DID YOU EVER NAME ANYONE WHO DECLARED UNDER VDIS? And why exactly were you FIRED?
Vishwa Bandhu Gupta (Wed Jun 21 19100 6:25 IST)
Agni: I have not been fired. All that the government has said is that I have indulged in some unexplained conduct unbecoming of a government servant. It is they who have to explain which conduct they are talking about and what this conduct is, which according to them is unbecoming of a government servant. The matter will be put before the court for their view now. So far, the government has not even come out with a single paper on what they consider unbecoming of a civil servant.
Zealot (Wed Jun 21 19100 6:14 IST)
Back to Mr Gupta: Come on, be gutsy, go ahead and reveal the names of all the *errant* businessmen who declared ill-gotten wealth via VDIS. Let's have a level playing field, sir. You can't just take on the helpless cricketers and seek glory. Right?
Vishwa Bandhu Gupta (Wed Jun 21 19100 6:27 IST)
Zealot: You will appreciate that I am not just targeting corrupt cricketers. You might have names of corrupt politicians too out soon. Then it will be you who say give me their names.
Piroja (Wed Jun 21 19100 6:17 IST)
Mr Gupta: Is it fair for the finance ministry to suspend an honest officer for just pointing out the mistakes in VDIS? Your family must be feeling miserable about it. Isn't it?
Vishwa Bandhu Gupta (Wed Jun 21 19100 6:28 IST)
Piroja: Frankly my heart is quite heavy. But brave men don't cry, they fight it out and put these bastards out of business.
Vishwa Bandhu Gupta (Wed Jun 21 19100 6:29 IST)
With that I would like to call it a day. See you next time soon. Thanks a lot to all of you.
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