'Pakistan is uncomfortable with the Indian presence in Afghanistan. They want the Taliban to ensure that there is no Indian presence in Afghanistan.'
In a pivotal diplomatic development that signals evolving regional dynamics, Taliban leader and the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan's acting Foreign Minister Amir Khan Muttaqi visited India over the weekend, marking the first high-level, face-to-face bilateral political engagement between New Delhi and the Taliban government since the Talibs' return to power in Kabul in 2021.
While the visit itself was underplayed officially, its significance was not lost on strategic observers and foreign policy veterans.
Among those who met the Afghan minister was retired RA&W official Tilak Devasher, author of Pakistan: Courting the Abyss and Pakistan: At the Helm and Pakistan: The Balochistan Conundrum and a former member of the National Security Advisory Board.
Devasher presented Muttaqi with a copy of his book The Pashtuns: A Contested History -- a scholarly deep dive into the complex identity, tribal legacy, and historical struggles of the Pashtun people, many of whom make up the core of the Taliban's leadership.
Devasher shares his impressions of Muttaqi and how the Taliban's current posture is markedly different from its earlier avatar in the 1990s in a must-read interview with Syed Firdaus Ashraf/Rediff.
What prompted you to gift your book The Pashtuns: A Contested History to Amir Khan Muttaqi?
The book is about the Pashtuns and who better to give it to than a Pashtun who happens to be a minister in the Afghanistan government. It was purely a personal gesture on my part.
We did not have much of a conversation. I told him the book was about the Pashtuns. My impression was that he was happy to receive the book.
How do you see Muttaqi's visit to India at a time when the Taliban government in Afghanistan and Pakistan's government are attacking each other?
Let us look at his visit in the India-Afghanistan context before getting into Pakistan.
His visit is very significant as it is the first face to face bilateral meeting at the political level.
Earlier our foreign secretary had met him in Dubai and our external affairs minister had spoken to him over the phone but this was the first face to face meeting at the political level. In that way, this was very significant as we were able to discuss a whole host of issues.
What is happening between Pakistan and Afghanistan has its own dynamics which has got little to do with India.
Whatever we recall of the Taliban are not good memories right from the time when the Indian Airlines plane was hijacked and taken to Kandahar during the Taliban regime of 1999. We had to release terrorist Maulana Masood Azhar in exchange for hostages at Kandahar, which remains a very bitter memory for Indians. Has the Taliban now changed for India?
When the hijacking of the Indian Airlines plane took place the Taliban had just taken over governance in Afghanistan. They were basically a insurgent force and had no experience in governance or administration. They were totally dominated by Pakistan and did whatever Pakistan told them.
If you recall, there were only three countries that had recognised the Taliban and they were Pakistan, the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia. They were totally beholden to Pakistan at that time.
Today, after 20 years, they have much more experience and maturity in making their own foreign policy. They deal with a whole host of countries like Russia, China independently now, unlike their last rule. They now have experience of governance. So it is a different Taliban in that respect from 1999.
I don't think the ideology has changed, it is the same. But at least in the governance and administration there is a difference for sure.
Were they ever anti-India during their earlier rule of 1996 to 2001 or now?
I don't recall any anti-India statement made by the Taliban then and even now. After they took over in 2021, they asked India to reopen the embassy, and that they would provide security. They also said they would like to send their army personnel for training.
The Taliban were never anti-India but it was Pakistan that wanted them to be anti-India. Pakistan is uncomfortable with the Indian presence in Afghanistan. They want the Taliban to ensure that there is no Indian presence in Afghanistan.
This time the Taliban are taking their own decisions. They are not beholden to Pakistan or listening to Pakistan. If they were listening to them they would not have fought with Pakistan on their border.
We were friendly with the earlier government in Afghanistan and close to leaders like Hamid Karzai. How do you see the change from our side towards Taliban rule in Afghanistan? What are our compulsions?
It is the question of knowing them.
In August 2021 they took over Afghanistan (after America left). In June 2022 we set up a technical office to ensure distribution of food aid to Afghanistan. During COVID times we gave them a lot of vaccines and were the first responders when there were earthquakes recently.
India is known to help in the humanitarian and developmental needs of Afghanistan. We have centuries old contact with Afghanistan and we have a history of people to people contact, so there is no reason why we should disrupt that relationship.
Now we are pushing the medical assistance and humanitarian assistance much further. The Taliban government wants us to start more development projects in Afghanistan.
India is yet to recognise the Taliban regime unlike China and the UAE. What factors do you believe are stopping New Delhi from establishing formal diplomatic ties?
I think only Russia has recognised them. Many other countries are engaging with them at a senior level without recognition.
Recognition is a diplomatic term and there is an international consensus that certain conditions need to be fulfilled before you grant recognition. But short of that all countries are engaging with the Taliban.
Every country has their own national interest and they want to pursue that and not leave a vacuum.
Is it a coincidence that the Pakistan military conducted air strikes in Afghanistan on the same day that Muttaqi met National Security Affairs Ajit Doval? Could this be read as a message from Rawalpindi to the Taliban?
Look at this bilaterally. Pakistan wants the Taliban to deal with the Tehrik-e-Taliban (TTP) which is hurting them badly and Pakistan has not been able to deal with it.
One week before this meeting the TTP carried out several attacks in which one Pakistan lieutenant colonel and a major were killed. I think 11 Pakistani soldiers were killed too.
There is frustration on the part of Pakistan because of its inability to deal with the TTP.
Pakistan must have got some information about TTP leader Noor Wali Mehsud being present in Afghanistan and therefore they attacked. The fact that at the same time the Taliban foreign minister was in India is coincidence. The fact that Pakistan is bleeding badly because of Mehsud and his TTP. Let us not underplay that.
Pakistan's army chief Asim Munir recently demanded that the Taliban 'choose a side'. Why is the Taliban unwilling to heed this warning, especially given the cross-border implications?
When the USA invaded Afghanistan in 2001, the Taliban sought refuge and shelter from their brethren across the border in tribal areas (in Pakistan). Those tribes have now arranged themselves as TTP.
As per the Pasthun code, which is called 'Pashtun wali' they received shelter from the TTP and today when the TTP needs it, the Taliban has to give it back. That is the code of Pashtun wali, otherwise they will be called as baigarat (without honour). And this is the biggest slur you can give a Pashtun.
Therefore, the Taliban cannot take action against the TTP. They have told Pakistan that they can facilitate talks with TTP but it is they who have to sort out their problems.
It is an old Pashtun code which the Taliban are following.
If you recall, America told Taliban 1.0 under Mullah Omar to hand over al-Qaeda terrorist Osama bin Laden but (then Taliba leader) Mullah Omar refused to do so. He was told by the US that he will lose his rule and government but Mullah Omar refused stating that he as a Pashtun cannot hand over Osama. Mullah Omar said Osama had sought refuge with him.
Therefore, the USA invaded Afghanistan in 2001 after which the Taliban were out in the wilderness for the next 20 years. That is how much stronghold Pashtun wali has. Mullah Omar could have handed over Osama bin Laden to the USA and continued to rule but he didn't do it because of the Pashtun code of providing refuge to one who seeks it.
A person who seeks sanctuary with a Pashtun, that Pashtun has to help him even if he loses his life.
Unfortunately, this concept of Pashtun wali is a very difficult concept for the West to understand. People have to understand what is Pashtun wali and why the Pashtun behave in certain manner. Only after understanding that can you frame policies accordingly.