'Pakistan wanted India out of Afghanistan to which again the Taliban told Pakistan to take a walk.'
'Six months after they came back to power in 2021 India was back in Afghanistan at the request of the Taliban.'
'The Taliban realised that India has no agenda of its own in Afghanistan.'
In a pivotal diplomatic development that signals evolving regional dynamics, Taliban leader and the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan's acting Foreign Minister Amir Khan Muttaqi visited India over the weekend, marking the first high-level, face-to-face bilateral political engagement between New Delhi and the Taliban government since the Talibs' return to power in Kabul in 2021.
While the visit itself was underplayed officially, its significance was not lost on strategic observers and foreign policy veterans.
Among those who met the Afghan minister was retired RA&W official Tilak Devasher -- author of Pakistan: Courting the Abyss, Pakistan: At the Helm, Pakistan: The Balochistan Conundrum, The Pashtuns: A Contested History, and a former member of the National Security Advisory Board.
"The Taliban does not want India to be out of Afghanistan but to be much more active in Afghanistan," Mr. Devasher tells Syed Firdaus Ashraf/Rediff in the concluding segment of a two-part must-read interview.
Despite the elimination by Islamabad of several TTP chiefs over the years -- Baituallah Mehsud (2009), Hakimullah Mehsud (2013) and Fazlullah (2018) -- the TTP remains active and resilient. What explains its continued strength?
You've got to go for the origins of the TTP. They came into existence after the Pakistan army's action against Lal Masjid in 2007.
Seventy percent of students of the Lal Masjid were from tribal areas. Now, if you take the blood of a Pashtun that enmity goes through generations.
There is a very famous line, a Pashtun took revenge after 100 years and he said that he took it too soon. Enmity for badal (revenge) carries on for generations among the Pashtuns.
So the TTP is fighting against the Pakistan army for all the atrocities committed by them on Pashtuns, they are not going to forget them. It does not matter whether the leaders keep changing but they will continue to fight.
Why is Pakistan so focused on targeting Noor Wali Mehsud, the current TTP leader? What makes him particularly dangerous from Islamabad's perspective?
He has been a menace to them since 2018 when he became the leader. Since then he has managed to bring all the factions of the TTP together.
Noor Wali Mehsud has changed the tactics and created a more centralised structure with proper commissions and provinces or wilayas. He has improved governance all over the tribal areas and expanded TTP activities in different parts of Pakistan.
His ability to provide proper governance is much more pronounced than his predecessors. He has also stopped targeting civilians and only targets Pakistani security forces. This makes him a very dangerous leader.
What is the TTP's goal?
Initially, they wanted to implement their version of sharia (following Islamic tenets) in Pakistan.
All over Pakistan?
They did that in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas which are now merged in KPK (Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, Pakistan's northern region bordering Afghanistan). Impose Sharia first in KPK and then the rest of Pakistan. They are not looking at separating from Pakistan or getting independence.
Now of late, under Noor Wali's leadership the TTP is adopting Pashtun nationalism. They want to govern over the Pashtun territory of Pakistan and they have adopted more of a Pashtun nationalistic line.
Is the TTP capable of capturing Pakistan, a State with military might?
Ultimately that is their goal.
If the Taliban could defeat the USA despite being a superpower, it is a motivating factor for the TTP that they can deal with Pakistan too.
I am not justifying it by saying what is right what is wrong, but this is what the TTP feels.
Does the TTP respect the Durand Line, the 2,640 km border between Pakistan and Afghanistan?
No Pashtun respects the Durand line (drawn by the British in 1893).
This includes the Taliban too? Do they respect the sanctity of the Durand Line?
The Taliban have told Pakistan that they do not accept the Durand Line.
They have uprooted the (border) fence in many parts of the Durand Line. For them there is no border between Pakistan and Afghanistan. They say that the entire Pashtun area is their homeland, their watan.
Pashtuns have relatives and intermarry across the Durand Line. For them it is open territory.
You go back in history, in 1949, a loya jirga (grand council) held in Afghanistan rescinded all British treaties including the Durand Line.
Since 1949, no government in Afghanistan -- be it the monarchy under Zahir Shah, the republic under Mohammed Daoud Khan or the communists or the Mujhadeen or the Taliban or even Hamid Karzai and Ashraf Ghani -- no ruler in Afghanistan has recognised the Durand Line.
When the Taliban came to power in 2021, Pakistan's then prime minister Imran Khan hailed it as 'breaking the shackles of slavery.' What went wrong in the relationship between Pakistan and the Taliban after that?
Pakistan forgot that an Afghan is first and last a nationalist. He is not somebody's pitthu (lapdog).
If it is not in his national interest it is not in his interest, every Pashtun knows this.
Three things Pakistan wanted from the Taliban. Firstly, they wanted the Taliban government to recognise the Durand Line to which Taliban told Pakistan to take a walk.
Secondly, they wanted the Taliban to take action against the TTP to which again the Taliban told them to take a walk.
And thirdly, Pakistan wanted India out of Afghanistan to which again the Taliban told Pakistan to take a walk.
Within six months after they came back to power in 2021 India was back in Afghanistan at the request of the Taliban.
It is because the Taliban realised that India has no agenda of its own in Afghanistan.
India had $3 billion worth projects and all were people-friendly. Be it building a dam in Afghanistan or building the parliament building, hospitals or schools or even COVID vaccines. Whatever we did, we did for the people of Afghanistan.
So the Taliban does not want India to be out of Afghanistan but to be much more active in Afghanistan.
Thus, all the three objectives that Pakistan thought would be fulfilled with the Taliban being in Kabul, came to naught. And so the relationship started to deteriorate, especially because of the TTP.
What is the Taliban's stance on Kashmir?
The Taliban has never said anything against Kashmir. They have never supported Pakistan on Kashmir. In fact, the joint statement signed clearly mentions Jammu and Kashmir being a part of India. This has caused consternation in Pakistan and they have protested by calling in the Afghan envoy in Islamabad.
We are now witnessing a warming of ties between the Taliban and India -- at a time when India is often seen in parts of the Islamic world as adopting anti-Muslim policies. How do you interpret this?
Name one country from the Islamic world that has accused India of adopting anti-Muslim policies.
Turkey perceives our government as anti-Muslim.
Turkey is against India not because of Islam but because of its close relations with Pakistan.
Most of the countries in the Arab world have awarded Prime Minister Narendra Modi with their respective highest civilian honour.
It means all Muslim countries do not perceive Prime Minister Modi as Turkey or rather Pakistan would want the PM to be perceived as anti-Muslim.
Pakistan perceives India in a different manner because it is in the DNA of Pakistan to hate India.
Turkey is supporting Pakistan because of its bilateral relationship. But name any other Islamic countries out of 53 countries. Except Turkey and Pakistan, all of them are pro-Modi and pro-India.
Lastly, a hypothetical question. If the TTP captures Pakistan, is it not very dangerous for India to have a neighbour where such an extreme ideology is in power?
Whether it is the Taliban or TTP, they do not have an international agenda.
The Taliban is not like al-Qaeda of Osama bin Laden.
The Taliban does not want to spread its rule out of Afghanistan. They are not interested.
Similarly, with the TTP, they are happy in their own area.
The TTP and Taliban are not interested in expansionism?
No, they have no such ambitions or eyes on Kashmir.
The Taliban is an Afghan national force and they are happy with Afghanistan and do not want to spread their wings anywhere else.