'Sonia's a great asset to Congress; she will help us to rise again'

‘Rahul is a very perceptive young man, he always wants to know various things. But, he more experience.’

‘People should gain experience and move upwards. Raw people can’t move upwards.’

Senior Congress leader and former Punjab chief minister Captain Amarinder Singh feels that Sonia Gandhi should retain the leadership of the party for now, as Rahul Gandhi still has things to learn.

Edited excerpts from the interview:

We do see a lot of Congress leaders more enthused and hopeful that there could be a turnaround in the fortunes of the Congress party should Sonia Gandhi lead it.

Absolutely correct. And that’s what I have always said. I have said so in Punjab recently. I’ve said so in Delhi earlier on that I have worked with Sonia Gandhi for 16 years. 

She has been my president. I have been her PCC president twice. I have been a chief minister once and I think she is an excellent leader to work under. She believes in the modern concept of management. She gives you a task, if you perform, she backs you to the hilt and if you don’t perform, then you are sacked. So that’s exactly the way life should be and that’s good management. You don’t dilly-dally on things.

This is where the problem begins for the Congress party. There is a fear that Rahul Gandhi may come down anytime soon. There are voices we heard within the Congress party who feel given the state of the Congress party which is 44 MPs in the Lok Sabha, perhaps now is not the time for Rahul to take over.

Now is perhaps the time for a little bit more experience to take over. We have someone like even Sandeep Dixit saying that. Do you agree with that?

Yes, I agree with that. I think I have always believed that no. 1 we have come with the worst tally ever- 44. So at that stage when you are way down, you need somebody with, experience, ability to take you back on the top. And I think that is Sonia Gandhi. Last time it was different. It was the personality cult of Modi or somebody else that did the whole thing. But now I think time is changing. 

I think she would be a great asset to the party to take us up the ladder again. And there is no reason why Rahul can not work as vice-president. But you cannot have two power centres, that’s what I always believed. 

I started my career in a service where you have one power centre. You have a Chief of Army staff, you have a co-commander, his divisional commander, his divisional commander, his brigade commander and his battalion. So if you have two on top, then it is confusion. And that is why I am saying that she would be the ideal person and I hope very much that she continues to do that and let Rahul work under her and eventually, it is his future.

But Sonia Gandhi perhaps wants to give it over to Rahul Gandhi now?

Well, I don’t know. I haven’t discussed this issue with the Congress president. But I can tell that if she asks me tomorrow that Amarinder, what you think I’d say please stick on.

What’s the problem with Rahul Gandhi taking on now?

I don’t say that. As I said we gave gone down to 44 seats. We have to come up and I think at this stage Sonia Gandhi is the person who can take us back up. Rahul is there, he can work with her, he can work as a no. 2 for a while, he can learn the business of the whole thing.

So you think he hasn’t learnt the business completely?

No I’m not saying that. I’m saying that you have to start at a point and then go up.

But it has been 10 years.

You make a captain in 10 years. But he doesn’t become general in 10 years. Eventually he has to become a colonel and then a brigadier then a major general, then he goes up the ladder. But you learn as you grow. And it’s very different at a time when his father came. When Rajiv came, his mother had been assassinated and it was a completely different scene here. The scenario was such that everyone just pushed him in and he turned out to be a very fine leader. I’ve worked with him also. I have known him since school days. I have known Rahul. Rahul is a very perceptive young man. Rahul has always wanted to know various things and I’ve had many long conversations with him. And I find him to be very open and wanting to know many things and have a very open mind which is a very good thing. But you know again, you can’t have two leaders.

So then why not just Rahul? 

Because I think he needs more experience. I think he has to go around the country to meet the various people of the various states, understand various things and from there start beginning to pick up. I remember when we lost the elections in 1977, I also lost my election, Indira ji lost the election, Sanjay Gandhi also lost the election. Then she picked up the train and she also went all over India and sometimes at 3 o clock in the morning, there used to only 6 people on the platform.

Is that what Rahul needs to do now?

I think he should go around and he should build his image in the country and in the meantime, Sonia Gandhi should lead the party.

Is that possible that may be due to the credibility factor, many people don’t take Rahul seriously politically?

Today the media is so powerful. I am talking about ’77 when it was not that way. Yet, Mrs Gandhi did it because she had to do it. Now of course, situation is different. But still people want this one-to-one contact.

And there was no Narendra Modi then. And it comes to the point that there was no powerful, charismatic leader.

Indira ji was a very powerful charismatic leader. What happened to us in 77? So Modi is not there forever. Modi can be today, he was a sort of a personality who brought his party to power. And I think the same should be with our party. Sonia Gandhi is very well-known, she is very well-liked. She is liked in Punjab. Whenever we take her name there was lot of applause.

But there wasn’t much of a applause for Rahul Gandhi then?

I think one should be a little fair on that. It is not the question of no applause. You should give him time. You say 10 years is a long time. Ten years is nothing. When it comes to the future of the nation. He will have to move around, he will have to meet people one to one. He is certainly willing to learn and I think he will learn.

If you’re talking about timing, because there is criticism about Rahul Gandhi, and many Congress leaders also say that the timing of his leave was really wrong.

I agree and I wrote to him. I sent him a mail straight away. Come back, I said that. And I said that people do not like what you are going and please come back, the party wants you back.

Did he reply?

No, he did not reply but I am sure he received it. May be at that time he was upset about something, maybe he was thinking of something whatever it may be, he has never not replied to my mail ever. If I send him a SMS or something, I get a reply. This time perhaps the situation is different.

Do you think the Congress is ready for a Rahul’s kind of a Congress? 

No I don’t think so. I think the Congress party has a history going back to over 100 years. It had come up in the freedom struggle. There is no village in the country which doesn’t have a Congress group. In the littlest village you will find a Congress group there.

People are getting upset with the BJP but the alternatives are increasingly not the Congress party. They are the other regional parties that are coming up. Is that the fear factor?

No I don’t think so. But what one of our senior people has told Sonia Gandhi that choose 27 people or whatever the number of states are there in the country, and put one person from each state you choose, give him the task of restructuring the party.

Even you had a problem and many leaders from Punjab had a problem with someone who was handpicked by Rahul Gandhi -- for example Bajwa. Do you think that was a problem?

But that is not Rahul Gandhi’s fault.    

I’m talking of Congress’s huge experiment that failed

Well that I was against. I have said so to the Congress president. I have said that to Rahul Gandhi last time before the elections. And let me tell you when elections took place which we tried to get postponed, till today when the next elections are taking place, the village is still divided on those lines, four years earlier. I don’t think that was the right thing to do at that time, just before our elections, you divide a village; your own people are divided. How do you win that seat? So that certainly contributed to our defeat in 2012. 

But I think, as you were saying, there is time required. I will go back to my own little stage, Punjab, has a history like every other state has. Our history is based on the Buddha Dal and the Taruna Dal. The Buddha Dal is those who are the guiding factors, the guiding forces that are Sikh history and the Taruna Dal are the activators, chaps to activate on the ground. It still applies. You can’t just have Taruna Dal running around without somebody there on the top for the guidance. 

So the Congress party have people who have spent their entire lives with the Congress party you can’t just put them out to pasture. They are the ones who should be giving the advice and it is the younger ones who should be carrying this out in the field.

Well some like Digvijay Singh and others do not certainly think so. They say that it is time for the young to take over and if there is an older generation in party sulking so be it, they should realise that their time is up. So do you agree?

No I don’t think so you cannot just make a generational change with a knife and cut them through and say you guys are to go out and you are put out to pasture and on the other side, you have a new generation which has no experience coming in. It has to be a gradual change. When people retire out of some reason, when they get ill or something happens a place can be filled. That is the way a transition takes place always. Who has seen political change coming unless there is a violent change like in Russia or somewhere else? We don’t want it. We are a democracy. In a democracy people want to see a change coming, yes. 70 per cent of India may be under 40 today but the fact is that it should be done gradually. People should gain experience and move upwards. Raw people can’t move upwards.

You know it was almost given that eventually he will take over. You had him at the Jaipur session, he was taking about his dream about a different kind of Congress. Did he fail to take advantage of that kind of time? Or the Congress failed him with senior congress leaders going against him?

No I don’t think that is the case at all. Nobody is against Rahul Gandhi. It is only a question of timing. When Sonia Gandhi should give up and when he should come in. I say today that the time is for Sonia Gandhi today to lead us. Because we have been through a difficult time and it is a personality election and Sonia Gandhi has a very strong personality and we need that to counter Modi and these Kejriwals and other types.

Last time you spoke in Parliament, you also talked about bringing in Priyanka Gandhi. Now there is a sense within the Congress who feel that if you have to choose between the siblings, Priyanka has the charisma which Indira Gandhi had.

I haven’t discussed politics with Priyanka ever. I have known her also as a little girl and I think both of them would complement each other. I don’t think you can say that choose one or choose the other. Why can't they work as a team?

You think she should come into active politics now?

I think so. I don’t know why a lot of people feel that she shouldn’t. I personally feel that she is a very intelligent, a very perceptive young lady and so is Rahul.

But there is a worry that perhaps she would overshadow Rahul Gandhi. Then there would be three power centres.

It’s not that. Work together as a team is what I am saying. I am not saying separate teams. As a brother and sister they can work together as a team. They get on very well together, so why can’t they work together as a political team?

But they do work together when he is campaigning. But the point is wouldn’t there be a fear factor that she would overshadow Rahul Gandhi?

Do you think there wouldn’t be a cool between the brother and sister. They would know that this would have never happened. And I don’t see Priyanka doing anything like this. Priyanka is all for her brother and she would give her brother all backing that is necessary. You are talking about the younger generation and the older generation. I think it should be a gradual upper move. And eventually all of us have to quit. I am 73. How long am I going to carry on for? And I am one of the younger ones in some  way. We all have to go. When we go, then others fit into our shoes. But today if you try and pick up people and say in Punjab that I want this chap or that chap, a youth Congress chap to lead the state, the state won’t follow.

There is also a fear and apprehension amongst many Congress leaders that if Rahul Gandhi does take over this point of time, despite the popular resentment or the popular feeling that Sonia Gandhi should carry on, there could be a withering away of the Congress Party on or there could be a break in the Congress Party. You think that is possible?

Look as I told you, the Congress Party borne many storms and it is an old party, So, I don’t think anything will ever break. It is a question of whether they will accept A or B or C, that’s a different matter.

I mean do they have choice, I mean after all he is a Gandhi, it is given that a Gandhi should...?

No, I think the Congress party of today if asked would prefer Sonia Gandhi to be there for some time.

What if she insists Rahul to take over? Would it be difficult for you or someone to work under Rahul Gandhi?

Well it’s only me, I am only one individual. I have known only known... his father and I was in school. Sonia ji has been very kind to me for so many years. I have known her for 40 years. And I know their children since they were born.

Would it be easy for senior Congress leaders to work under Rahul Gandhi?

It depends on the team he puts together and whether they will be able to pull together, this along.

But will it be easy for you to work under Rahul Gandhi?

For me, I have no problem. As I said, I have known them since they were children. So to me it doesn’t make a difference. Amarinder Singh is an individual. I am talking about many, many Amarinder Singhs all over the country, how they will work and if you ask them, they will prefer as I have said Sonia Gandhi to remain, these people to gradually move into position, no abrupt change.

I have spoken to Kamal Nath, I have spoken to many other leaders in the Congress... They too say that there are multiple power centres, they are confused between Sonia and Rahul Gandhi. Do you think Rahul Gandhi needs to wait and take a little more time?

I think he should remain vice- president. He should carry on with whatever task the Congress president gives him. And gradually start working into her shoes. But not an abrupt change. No. Today, Congress is going through a difficult time in the country. It is the best way to come out of the mess and back up the ladder and that is Sonia Gandhi.