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The Rediff Interview/Subramanian Swamy

'Advani, Joshi, Uma Bharti must resign'

Janata Party president Dr Subramanian Swamy is an enigma, who has a question for every answer, and an answer for every question. In this interview with N Sathiya Moorthy he discusses the evolving political situation in the nation, and in Tamil Nadu.

The BJP is said to have asked Rajasthan Chief Minister Bhairon Singh Shekhawat to meet Chandra Swami and influence you into taking a soft-line against the government.

These are only press reports. Chandra Swami is a good friend of mine, and he has devotees and well-wishers in every party, including the JP. That doesn't mean that he, or anyone else, can influence me. And if the press reports were true, what about the tall talk of the BJP charging Chandra Swami with this, that and everything in the past?

But you are said to be behind every move of Jayalalitha that embarrasses the BJP and the Vajpayee government?

She is an intelligent woman, and she knows what is best for her party.

But you were the one who trained your guns on Ramakrishna Hegde and Ram Jethmalani. Jayalalitha has started demanding their resignations too, after the removal of her party colleague, Sedapatti R Muthiah, from the Union Cabinet...

I have been demanding action against Hedge and Jethmalani even before the Muthiah episode broke out. But after Muthiah's resignation, there can be no justification for their continuance...

But there seems to be some difference between the cases of Muthiah and Buta Singh on the one hand, and those of Hegde and Jethmalani, on the other?

No. A specious argument is being put forward that there are no pending chargesheets against Hegde and Jethmalani. The fact is that they were being probed by the government of which they themselves are now ministers. That has not been denied. Leave alone the legal aspects of it, how can it be ethical? It flies on the face of the spirit of the Antulay case verdict, and also the spirit of L K Advani's purported stand when he was being probed in the Jain hawala case.

What then is your demand?

Whether it is Muthiah, or Hegde, Buta Singh or Jethmalani, the prime minister should come out with the principles on which such demands should be decided. There cannot be one stand on Muthiah, and another on Hegde. Personally. I want all leaders against whom a chargesheet, FIR or a PE (preliminary enquiry) is pending, to be kept out of the ministry.

Does it include Advani, Dr Murli Manohar Joshi, and Uma Bharati, all of the BJP?

Of course, yes. They have been chargesheeted in the Ayodhya demolition case, and they should quit.

But the cases against them are 'political' in nature, or at least, that's the argument...

What's political about the Ayodhya demolition? When everyone said the Ayodhya dispute was political in nature, they said it involved religious sentiments. They even said other political parties were playing 'votebank politics', and they alone were not doing anything of the kind...

Anyway, it did not involve moral turpitude or the like?

It's a crime more heinous than any. They promised the courts, the National Integration Council, Parliament, and the entire nation, time and again, that they would not demolish the disputed structure. Yet, they went ahead and did precisely that, in the full glare of the nation, and the international media. They cannot deny their role in it, can they?

Leave alone religion and politics, can anyone get away with demolishing a piece of property about a case is pending before the courts? And knowing full well that the demolition would lead to nationwide violence and strife, they did it. The post-demolition violence claimed at least 2,000 lives across the country.

You have been meeting Congress president Sonia Gandhi, lately...

Yes, I have met her thrice in the last month. I have been meeting her at least once a month all these seven or eight years. There is no great significance to the current meetings.

What about your meeting with CPI-M General Secretary Harkishen Singh Surjeet? You never got along well with the Leftists...

I have met Mr Surjeet twice in the last month or so. The first one was facilitated by Samajwadi Party chief Mulayam Singh Yadav...

What did you discuss?

With the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Marxists are coming around to seeing my views on the economy with greater perspective. I was the one who propounded that there should be a 'level-playing field' among nations on the economic front, that they cannot have low-interest rates in their countries, and argue against cheap labour in India.

Did you discuss politics at these meetings?

Yes, but they were more informative and exploratory in nature...

What's your comments on the performance of the Vajpayee government in the last month or so?

Where they have performed anything for me to comment upon? Other than changing a few governors, and packing various Raj Bhavans with RSS leaders, what have they done? There too, they used to criticise the Congress earlier for appointing retired partymen as governors...

What then are your expectations from the Vajpayee government?

I want the government to stick to the National Agenda. As you know, the National Agenda does not include the RSS. And it was done conscentiously, and even I was a signatory. Yet, Mr Vajpayee went straight ahead and praised the RSS in Parliament. I am told there are also moves to include the organisation in the Republic Day parade next year, and honour some of its late leaders, otherwise. Even the work on the Ayodhya temple is being taken up in full swing, I understand...

Coming to Tamil Nadu, what about the AIADMK demand for the dismissal of the DMK government?

That was a poll plank, a poll promise of the AIADMK alliance in the state. We campaigned mainly on that issue and have won the election. Even subsequent events, both on the law and order front and at the administrative-level, have further justified the demand.

If it was a poll plank, what could be the BJP's reservations now?

Possibly, the BJP is afraid that Jayalalitha and the AIADMK may become all-powerful if an assembly election is held now and she comes back to power with a roaring majority and the DMK is finished off, as is bound to happen.

What about the BJP's proposal for a coordination committee to sort out the differences among the coalition partners?

I don't think the RSS will like to have me in it. Anyway, it may go the way of the United Front steering committee, where consensus and majority, not the issue and their actual resolution, was the dominant theme.

If you are not in it, what about the AIADMK?

It's for Jayalalitha to decide whether it is good for the AIADMK to have a multi-lateral forum, which can really dissolve no dispute, or stick to bilateral talks with the BJP on a one-to-one basis...

The Rediff Interviews